Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:23:36 -0600 RE: From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I am currently working on a d20 system for STAR FRONTIERS and would like any suggestions and input for new rules. Thankyou.
Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:16:58 -0600 RE: Star Frontiers Vehicular Combat and Arms Rules. From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Well, I know they came up with some rules in a previous Dragon issue for arming vehicles in STAR FRONTIERS but unfortunately, I don't have that issue. So, If anyone could come up with a close approximation of these rules I would be grateful. Also, I downloaded from somewhere rules about the void and how to treat it which was most interesting. If you don't have it do a Net Search with the key words being 'star frontiers' using Netscape. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 02 Jan 1996 12:25:13 -0700 RE: Star Wars From: Steve Bartell <STEVEBAR@wordperfect.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Sorry to post this on the Frontiers list, but it was the best place I could think of. During my Christmas shopping, I got hung up at the bookstore in front of the RPG section (as always!). I spent a lot of time looking through the Star Wars RPG books. From what I could tell, Star Wars looks like a very good RPG. It would be nice to play a good SF game that is still supported, and since Star Wars is my favorite movie - what better. Could anyone who has played or owns this game let me know what you think of it? Please do it privately, since I don't want to bog down the list. I have already recieved cash for my birthday tommorrow, and it is starting to get hot in my pocket. :-) Also, does anyone know of a Star Wars listserver? It doesn't matter whether it is related to the RPG, movie, or books. Thanks! Steve Bartell
Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:45:49 -0600 RE: Re: No Subject From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 06:46 PM 1/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-01-01 17:25:03 EST, you write: ('you' being Thomas >Fuller) > >>I am currently working on a d20 system for STAR FRONTIERS and would like any >>suggestions and input for new rules. >> >> > >Why? What do you think is wrong with the system in the books? And which >system...we use the Zebulon's stuff, I like the result table in the book. > (I've worked out an interesting system for investments using the result >table and Finance skill; when I transfer it from my notebook to the computer >I'll have to put it on the list here.) If you're talking about Alpha Dawn >rules, and just wanted to use a d20 instead of rolling %, divide all the >numbers by 5. That'll get you the number you need on a d20 (100/5=20). That >ought to be simple, and doesn't change the odds much if at all in Alpha >Dawn--which is okay if you don't think there's anything wrong with the >system. > >So why are you doing this? > >Never go on an adventure without a hat! > Indy > >IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman) > Because its there to do. I am including neat and nifty stuff like cybernetics, etc...cyberpunk by subspace radio?! Maybe kidding there and more skills. Instead of having to spend the 10? points to become a techex, we just give you fifty to choose from our rather large list of skills. None of that Scispec or Techex crap. While Zebulon's rules are good they could still use improvement. Whatever happened to personal armor and vehicular weaponry? I'm including that also among many things. So if you have any constructive criticism or new rules or possibly resources on the Net for Star Frontiers, let me know. Thankyou. Darryl Fuller.>
Wed, 03 Jan 1996 02:32:30 CST RE: Re: No Subject <199601030045.SAA18595@n-link.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu >Because its there to do. I am including neat and nifty stuff like >cybernetics, etc...cyberpunk by subspace radio?! Maybe kidding there and >more skills. Instead of having to spend the 10? points to become a >techex, >we just give you fifty to choose from our rather large list of skills. >None of that Scispec or Techex crap. While Zebulon's rules are good they >could still use improvement. Whatever happened to personal armor and vehicular >weaponry? I'm including that also among many things. So if you have any >constructive criticism or new rules or possibly resources on the Net for >Star Frontiers, let me know. >Thankyou. >Darryl Fuller.> I too question why the heck you'd go to 1d20. There is more to 'do' than I'd have time to do if I was getting paid to flesh out the system as is, let alone rewrite the entire system. I'd suggest focusing your energies in a more productive way then reinventing th wheel. That'd be like removing the class system from AD&D and replacing it with a template system; the templates being fighter, thief, cleric, wizard. Ten Points To Buy Into Profession I consider that to be the vestige of an idea that wasn't fully developed, or wasn't fully removed. Remember: Zebulon's Guide was pushed out the door as 1/2 the original planned size, and with several important systems missing/unresolved, and you can't really playtest an unfinished game. As is it is a pretty ridiculous statement they make: 'you start out with 20 points, 10 of which you MUST spend on this!' And cat's really start out with 11 lives, but they must spend two to be born, yeah. So I've crossed out those silly lines, and just give 10 points to start out with as (reached adulthood) points. After that, we discuss character concept and see what other points are to be given. (generally about 30 for 4 year college is what I'd been doing (inherited from the previous GM) but that's probably a little low.) I DO NOT agree that the removal of the professions is a good fix. It makes sense to me to have the 'archetypes' in the game (especially since it is of a more space opera vein) and allow some differentation in the skills people can use. I know that it's not just as easy for me to learn a language (see my webpage for language system) or Vehicles: Atmospheric as it is for me to learn comsci or painting. I do think that maybe allowing people to eventually change professions with some sort of buy out penalty would be good. But just "buy whatever 'neat-o' skills which give you the best survivalbility by the numbers all at the same cost" leaves kinda a bad taste in my mouth. I don't see the scispec and techex etc. system as crap. As they mention, the spacer isn't included, which IMHO leaves the door open to the group to create new professions. I felt the old-school AD biosocialist wasn't given justice under explorer or scispec, so i created the Biosocialist profession. I also created a Administrator profession for a player who wanted a Vrusk corp suit type to play...of course he's focussed his life on the pursuit of gain for his company in administration....it seems silly he get's to get 'Weapons: Powered Assault Armor' with the same cost as a Star Law Ranger. Powered Assaul Armor, Vehicle Weaponry In various Dragons. as far as ZG is concerned, they left out PAA, but put it in dragon. The bionics, cybernetics, and robotics are all missing and reported to maybe be in Gamma World's Epsilon Cyborg. The vehicle stuff was in dragon. Take a look at my index (since I can't post it from right here, anyway) of dragon articles (that I'm aware of) since it seems you may not realise exactly what was once put out there... I once used the PAA rules in an adventure. If I'd have gone by the rules, one suited person is capable of taking out any character party of heavily armed beings travelling in an armed vehicle. just a TAD overkill/out of balance. Of course I'd much rather have robot/bionic/cybernetic rules. Robot: all or mostly metal/wire/mechinical bionic: attaching mechanical bits into livng creatures cybernetic: robot with a flesh brain (as far as I can make out from the rules as is...) (did I ever tell you about my friend the dralasite who's body was stolen and id eventually ended up with ids brain in a lowly streetsweeper cybot?:) roymeo "A man walks into a bar. He says 'bartender, can I have a drink?' The bartender says, 'I don't know. Can you?'" --ancient Dralasite joke
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 13:10:18 -0600 RE: Re: 2001: a space odyssey From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 12:57 AM 1/3/96 -0600, you wrote: > > I just saw two copies of this module in a local(ish) area store. >It is based on the clarke book/movie, for Star Frontiers, and probably >pretty pointless to play. But I thought i'd mention it anyway. >they're both shrinkwrapped, and in good shape. >mail me if you're interested in me picking one up for you... > >And since I have my universe file on my web page now, this is just a reminder >that if you miss the planet postings, you can find them all there. >http://www.public.iastate.edu/~roymeo/StarFron/sfpage.html for all the >SF stuff I could fit into my account. > >also the Void article from ...someone else on the server... > >and the Clay O Rama rules. :) > >roymeo > >Thankyou but I'm looking for 2010. I have a photocopy but not the maps. It is the only module I am missing. I found the void article while doing a net search. TimC27@aol.com did it. I sent him some email but havent had aa response. I am revamping the SF to conform with a d20 system and should be getting the vehicular armament rules they did in Dragon Magazine. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:36:19 -0600 RE: Star Frontiers Classes From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu What you are saying is that I should use different areas like the scispec or techex. I can go to college and learn any number of skills that I want to while paying the same amount of money for each class I take. It should reason to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the same thing with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the rules I am creating. I've added a few more skills that cost between 3 and 7 points to pick and 3 and 7 points to increase. Some skills still require prerequisites. I'd be loony not to include those. However, there can still be character templates for such people who like the scispec, techex, etc...
Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:52:38 -0500 RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I have always been,...uncomfortable,... with classes. I mean, what do they mean, really? The most natural systems are those that say I have fundamental talents, or capacities, or whatever, and I build upon those. Also, one commonly overlooked reason for developing certain abilities is mental/emotional --compensation--. How many people achieve much because they feel like they are overcompensating. Maybe this could be the basis for mechanics, rather than an artificial 'class' system. Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"? Do they say "I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from Flamerjam Community College in "Techex-ology" If you are an engine mechanic, you are an engine mechanic. And you could be a damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail on a sax. Doesn't that feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a job-title, but today, that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING" is kinda passe. No? Today, we say, I have these skills, and if you are willing to pay me a ton of credits, well, hell, call me whatever makes your boat float (just don't call me late for dinner,...yuk yuk). Only the very top of the line professional types--lawyers, architects, doctors (Dammit, Jim, I'm a Med-spec, not a saxaphone repairman!) And why isn't it "Sci-ex" or "Tecspec"? Its late. going to bed. TimC27
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 00:45:59 CST RE: More on Professions <960103145736_105416651@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Indy/The Junkman said: >I'm not sure about changing professions, myself. I think it's a bad >idea. But the great thing about the game is, that it doesn't really >matter--your character can buy any skill he wants! Sure, some skills >are more expensive than others, but that's how it goes. Some people >have different areas of expertise. If you allow people to change >professions (at a penalty) you're going to have scenerios like this: >I want to pick up (so and so) skills now (for example, Weapon skills) >at a cost of 2X because they're out of my field; but if I change >profession (at cost of Y), then work on learning those skills, and >change back (at cost of Y <maybe Z>)--is X > 2Y (or Y+Z)? Hey, I'm >changing my profession! >That kind of leaves a bad taste in MY mouth...it would be really >tempting to do, however. I don't THINK The Junkman would do that, >but then he's been pretty annoyed that Weapons: Repair (and to a lesser >extent, Communication Devices: Repair) aren't in the Techex field. >Better to leave it alone... >(And adjusting the cost to change profession merely changes the values >of the variables in the scenerio above, it doesn't eliminate it.) Of course i was thinking of it in terms of what would work hypothetically, not what would work when I get a bunch of stupid number crunching players. Even in a realistic sort of way, I suppose it would be something I kept around in case a player made a sudden life-path change and then I'd tell them about it. It wouldn't be something I let them see and know about so they can calculate exactly when they wanted to start crunching the numbers... Hypothetically, does it make sense that an administrator Vrusk could eventually become an explorer once she'd had a taste of adventure and vowed never to climb behind a desk again? ]>(did I ever tell you about my friend the dralasite who's body was ]>stolen and id eventually ended up with ids brain in a lowly ]>streetsweeper cybot?:) ]Interesting...of course, according to the old Alpha Dawn rules (which ]are the only rules for robots, et al) that we have right now, they're ]limited to levels 4-6. Kind of expensive for a lowly streetsweeper, it ]seems. (In the 8 robot levels definitions I'm working on, I'd say ]they'd probably be 5+.) Well, of course it was silly. Beaurcratic mix up or good way to get a character with no player anymore out of the game as a scenario hook? You make the call. roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 01:27:43 CST RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes <199601040236.UAA28192@n-link.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Darryl Fuller said: >What you are saying is that I should use different areas >like the scispec or techex. I can go to college and learn >any number of skills that I want to while paying the same >amount of money for each class I take. It should reason >to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the >same thing with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the >rules I am creating. Yes, you can go to school and learn about any subject they offer. And do you know how many people actually do this? not many. Forgetting about the few who take an eclectic course load, would not be too out of line for a space-operaish game. Even then YOU can pay MONEY for any class you would like. But money and experience are far from being similar. And I bet you will excell in some fields more than others. I bet some of those classes you will need to study more for to keep the same grades. Thus, you'll spend the same money, yet spend varying experience for the same 'amount' of knowledge. I know that I'm a major anomoly because I'm Art and Design and Computer Science. Even in my case, about 3 years ago I discovered I was probably an Artist with an interest in computers rather than a 'duel-classed character'. It makes sense to me that the com sci people in my classes aren't very good at design. It makes sense to me that the art and design people in my classes aren't very good at thinking mathematically. Sure, ISU could merge the comsci-art programs, but I bet that even being required to take all the classes I have, most of the people excell in one area and find the other painful. It would also seem the professions are much like this. Ever gone to the career planning office? They have you take various interest and aptitude tests to see where your interest lies. I find the profession system in ZG to more realistically mimic this sort of reality. Tying the earlier post about letting people change professions, you'll note that someone noted that easily changing professions would allow people to number crunch. The professionless syste to me seems to be the ultimate number crunching...no matter how out of character the skill is, you can have it for the same cost as the master of that skill. As well, if you take away this 'penalty' for the vast number of skills which are NOT in one's area, you are upping the ante. Your 40 point characters may end up with the same skills my players need around 60 points to buy. I think this would sooner approach the problem of Alpha Dawn. not too many points, and everyone has most of the skills available. roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 02:01:21 CST RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes <960103223611_105932013@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu TimC27@aol.com said: >I have always been,...uncomfortable,... with classes. I mean, >what do they mean, really? agreed. Classes are a way of differentating characters into seperate and unique groups so that they are all generally necessary in a group. This was done in the early days to make no one dispensible. >The most natural systems are those that say I have fundamental >talents, or capacities, or whatever, and I build upon those. sounds like the Star Frontiers professions to me. Fundamental talents are in your 'profession' area. it costs you more to learn outside your 'talents'. >Also, one commonly overlooked reason for developing certain >abilities is mental/emotional --compensation--. How many people >achieve much because they feel like they are overcompensating. huh? >Maybe this could be the basis for mechanics, rather than an >artificial 'class' system. I don't think the profession system is quite as bad as the class system It is primarily a skill based system. It has some 'talent/focus' framework on it, which is far from the class system. ------------------ ----job titles---- ------------------ >Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"? According to ZG, they do. They feel a bond for others of their profession, Cadres, etc. etc. I didn't buy this line, either. >Do they say "I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from >Flamerjam Community College in "Techex-ology" If you are an >engine mechanic, you are an engine mechanic. And you could be a >damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail on a sax. Well, my college has an engineering college. Are you in a technical profession? You're using the labels provided too specifically. Think of the number of specific jobs one could have under the title 'artist'. Techex covers engine mechanics, fuel pump designers, and everything else someone would likely be with the techex skills. > Doesn't that >feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a job-title, but today, >that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING" is kinda >passe. Well, the cadres which aren't developed very well but the little they are developed are that of a guild sort of thing. I think people are becomming more focussed in their professions today rather than less. I've seen colleges having to try to FORCE students to take a rounded base of classes and a lot of student resistance to this. Maybe this is where I seem to see that people are focussing more. Because I am the opposite of this and the attention I seem to draw as an anomoly makes me think it's a bigger issue than it is. > No? Today, we say, I have these skills, and if you are >willing to pay me a ton of credits, well, hell, call me whatever makes >your boat float (just don't call me late for dinner,...yuk yuk). "Wanted: someone with a lot of computer programming skills, algorithm analysis skills, debug skills, critical mathematical and theoretical modelling skills desired." vs. "Wanted: Computer Programmer" all the people I know of looking for computer programmers don't seem to be interviewing too many chemistry majors. why not? those chemistry majors could have a lot of computer skills....Sure, you'll accept any title I wanna call you if I pay you, but you're going to have to get my attention to even consider hiring you. Calling yourself a wage-slut isn't going to do much as far as that goes. > Only the very top of the line professional types--lawyers, architects, >doctors (Dammit, Jim, I'm a Med-spec, not a saxaphone repairman!) artists, vagrants (but I shouldn't use that, I should list their skills!), prostitutes, administrators, programmers, sales-people, parking attendants, etc. etc. Just as the career office has documented proof...people change jobs and thus job titles (lawyer to judge), but they generally stay in the nearby career-map area. Thus, Administration, Technical, sales, care-giving are generally appropriate long-term titles. >And why isn't it "Sci-ex" or "Tecspec"? >Its late. going to bed. they sound funny. roymeo
Thu, 04 Jan 96 13:33:59 EST RE: RPGs (fwd) (fwd) From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> OK, last try. My original message about Thomas Fuller's d20 system started by my statement that my group has switched from the complex HERO game system to AD&D for simplicity reasons. Unfortunately, I sent this twice and it got cut off both times. Here goes: -----------Orignal Message, Cont.---------------------- ...that take three hours each. Yes, a realistic and complex system is HOPED for, but is rarely achieved without the +1 power advantage, 'playable.' Our group got so frustrated at trying to roleplay but ending up spending most of the time hacking and slaying that we gave up and are now in the midst of trying to play in a more 'simple' game. Here are the advantages of first edition AD&D: --FAST: At first level, heroes tend to kill things in about three or four rounds, if they are lucky. However, those three or four rounds can go very quickly. I know, I know, people have had rounds take hours, but not if one limits the amount of modifiers one has. If one knows that they need a 15+ on a d20 to hit and then do 1d8 damage when they hit, combat goes VERY quickly. After about two rounds of figuring out the ACs of the villains, combat goes as smooth as silk. The point is that the DM should make bonuses rare. Side Suggestion: don't use unearthed arcana and use the system to roll up characters where you roll twelve average people and pick the one you want. --FLEXIBLE: The GM can easily add in modifiers for weird situations and not greatly screw up time it takes to run. GM, if one ignores certain rules, is free to make game go quickly. And why is this? Because AD&D is a RESOLUTION system, not a SIMULATION system. AD&D does not claim to be overly realistic. AD&D claims to make someone who is a master swordsman trash a beginner. Therefore, anything that makes things RESOLVE quicker is better. Star Frontiers, in many ways is a RESOLUTION SYSTEM. It adds a little bit more of realism, but the nice feature about it is that it is both flexible and adequately shows reality (unlike AD&D) but also resolves quickly (Well, theoretically) So, for those of you out there who are making systems, here is my personal advice: make resolution systems, not simulations. The only REAL way to simulate is to either bog oneself down in rules or actually get out there and beat the snot out of one another. Make games playable. Do not make them take forever to simulate OR resolve questions of whether something worked, or whether the combatants were trashed or not. I would GUESS (and only guess) that a combat should take about 15-20 minutes unless it is the climax of the story, in which case it could take about 30 minutes. Combat should be something that a player and character fidget about: either for the expectation of combat or the hope to avoid combat. However, if combat takes 3 hours, then one is never looking forward and feeling stress because of it, but instead sloughing through the it. SPECIFICALLY about Star Frontiers: The ONLY reason Star Frontiers failsto be a quick resolution system is the damage one incurs when one rolls the dice. Now, I am not trying to make an argument for weapons doing more damage because it is not REALISTIC, but rather on the basis of it taking too much TIME. If a character has an automatic pistol and has a final skill in the Pistol of 60, and on average 10 of those points go for cover, range, etc. then I will have to roll 18 times to knock out the average person. That combat is just too long! Now, add the fact that alien encounters have around 200 stamina each, and the only way to resolve combat within a year is to haul out the machineguns and Sonic Devestators. Just try a combat with 20 average people tring to knock each other out with fists. That is, try it if you have nothing better to do on a saturday night. So, to Mr. Fuller and all those trying to redo Star Frontiers, I suggest trying to quicken the Resolution of combat and other things. If that means increasing the damage of weapons, then all the better. If a different way can be found (if one wants to keep the low-lethality of weapons) then that would be good, too. Star Frontiers, though, deserves to have a better system of resolution. Personally, I think Star Wars does a good job of trying to keep the dice-rolls to damage ratio playable while still keeping the game realtively low lethality. If combat can be resolved semi-realistically and accuraltely in four or five 'rounds' of fighting, then that would be the best of all possible worlds. However, finding the mix of these elements is the gamers' seven cities of gold... me, delmar watkins
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:06:03 -0600 RE: Star Frontiers Classes From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay, someone just said something that makes sense...hmmmm wonder who it could be? If you go to college, you generally stay with one area of knowledge. Not all people are gifted in many areas. So we could have classes like the scispec or the techex (and I took a look at the Biosocialist). In my system, skills generally cost between 3 - 7 points. However, I could create the system to reflect a college type atmosphere in the manner of classes. You would initially be limited to a certain number of skills you could buy at regular price. And then if you wanted skills outside your course load the would cost extra. Hows that? Incidentally, It is possible to get killed with one shot in my rules. You do have the dodge option though and modifiers for cover etc... Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:58:24 -0600 RE: SF Skills From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Here is a following list of skills I have devised for the d20 system of SF. Accounting, Acrobatics, Animal Handling, Anthropology, Appraise, Archeology, Area Knowledge, Architectrure, Armoury, Art, Astronomy, Bargain, Bureaucracy, Biochemistry, Biology, Bluff, Body Language, Botany, Boxing, Brawling, Business, Camouflage, Carousing, Carpenty, Chemistry, Climbing Communications:Laser, Radio, Repair, Satellite, Scrambler, Subspace Radio Computers:Operate, Program, Repair, Security Cooking, Criminlogy, Cryptography, Cybernetics Cyberspace Skills:Cyberdeck Operations, Cyberspace Combat, Cyberspace Programs Diplomacy, Disguise Driving:Hover Vehicles, Machinery, Motorcycle, Repair, Tracked Vehicles, Wheeled Vehicles (for some reason I left out water borne vehicles, have to include those later) Ecology, Economics Engineering:CIVIL:SEE ARCHITECTURE, Electronics, Military, Vehicles Entertainment:Acting, Dancing, Musical Instrument, Poetru, Singing Escape, Exobiology, Fast Draw, Fishing, Foraging, Forensics, Fogery, Gambling, Gaming (RPG's and boardgames yeh!), Genetics, Goelogy, Geophysics, History, Hunting, Instruction, Interrogation, Intimidation, Jeweler, Journalism, Law, Leadership, Leatherworking, Lie Detection, Linguistics, Lip Reading, Literacy (for alien writings, prerequisite:Linguistics appropriate Language), Literature, Mathematics (all the way to calculus), Media Medical:Devices, Diagnosis, First Aid, Pathology, Physiology (needed for surgery, a must have to perform surgery on alien species), Surgery. Metallurgy, Meteorology, Music, Navigation (on planet), Observation, Occultism, Oration, Parachuting, Persuasion, Philosophy, Photography, Physics, Pickpocketing Piloting:Jet, Prop, Repair, Rotary Wing Poisons, Politics, Pottery Psychology:Hypnosis, Psychiatry (needed to prescribe drugs for psychotic patients), Psychology (can't prescribe drugs) Religion, Ride Mount, Running Robotics:Identify, Modify, Program, Repair Scrounging, Scuba, Sculpting Security Systems:Deactivate, Detect, Operate Sign Language, Skiing, Sociology Spaceship Skills:Astrogation, Engineering, Gunnery-Beam Weapons (fixed), Gunnery-Missile Weapons (fixed), Gunnery-Turreted Weapons, Piloting Sports, Stealth, Strategy, Survival, Theology, Tracking, Traps Weapons:Archery, Artillery, Axe, Beam Weapons, Crossbow, Demolitions, Direct Fire Weapons, Grenades, Knife, Melee Weapons, Missiles, P.G.S. Weapons, Powered Assault Armor, Sword, Thrown Weapons Xenolgy, Zoology That is a grand total of about 164 skills. If you think I should delete or add skills email me. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 19:59:48 CDT RE: RE: SF Skills From: NATHAN FUTRELL <futrena@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Re: Darryl Fuller's Skill list Very comprehensive, though, at a glance, I think you should have had a rifle and pistol skill as separate skills and fencing is different from other sword-play skills. Tell us more (or at least me). John (ignore the info below) -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nathan Futrell | "That which does not kill us must have missed us." The Madd Katt | ---Friedrich Nietzsche futrena@WKUVX1.BITNET | | "Is it me, or does Rush Limbaugh look like Jabba | the Hut?" ---The Madd Katt (Bo shuda.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:27:25 CDT RE: RE: Star Wars From: NATHAN FUTRELL <futrena@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Star Wars is a pretty good game. I think someone posted a set of rules for using SW to run SF a while back. Buy your Star Wars used if you can. Avoid the guides for the movies and the Han Solo at Stars End source book (I loved the Han Solo novels, but the sourcebook was disappointing. John. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nathan Futrell | "That which does not kill us must have missed us." The Madd Katt | ---Friedrich Nietzsche futrena@WKUVX1.BITNET | | "Is it me, or does Rush Limbaugh look like Jabba | the Hut?" ---The Madd Katt (Bo shuda.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:28 -0500 RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-03 21:38:42 EST, you write: >What you are saying is that I should use different areas like the scispec or >techex. I can go to college and learn any number of skills that I want to >while paying the same amount of money for each class I take. It should >reason to stand that a character in SF should be able to do the same thing >with out penalties. Thats how it goes in the rules I am creating. I've added >a few more skills that cost between 3 and 7 points to pick and 3 and 7 >points to increase. Some skills still require prerequisites. I'd be loony >not to include those. > > Well, it doesn't really stand to reason. Are each of those classes as easy for everybody, and does everybody learn the same amount from each? I'd say no...the entire class doesn't make A's, I'm sure. Not in every single class there is... Actually, we use some rules for college with the standard Zebulon's skill and profession rules. (Think color codes=grades...) There, it doesn't *cost* any more to take a class (skill) out of your profession, but it's harder to learn. (If the subject is in your PSA, you get a result shift on the grade roll.) Of course, if you fail the course, you don't get any skill benefit. You're talking about new skills that cost between 3 and 7 points...you talking Alpha Dawn kind of skills/system? Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:39 -0500 RE: Re: More on Professions From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-04 03:52:12 EST, you write: (Roymeo) >Of course i was thinking of it in terms of what would work >hypothetically, not what would work when I get a bunch of stupid number >crunching players. Even in a realistic sort of way, I suppose it would >be something I kept around in case a player made a sudden life-path >change and then I'd tell them about it. It wouldn't be something I let >them see and know about so they can calculate exactly when they wanted >to start crunching the numbers... > >Hypothetically, does it make sense that an administrator Vrusk could >eventually become an explorer once she'd had a taste of adventure and >vowed never to climb behind a desk again? Well, I just had an idea on that score. Bearing in mind that anybody can learn any skill, there's nothing preventing that Vrusk administrator from suddenly deciding that she wanted to adventure and take explorer skills. Of course, it'll cost her twice as much. After she's learned a number of explorer skills with the double penalty (hard to say when; maybe a certain number of skill levels, xp cost, or ratio between explorer to admin skills goes over 1:1 or some such), make the character an explorer and able to buy explorer skills for normal PSA cost, and all others (including admin skills) at double. This allows a character to change professions in the game, but prevents the number crunching I was concerned about because A: the player doesn't control exactly when the switch actually occurs; and B: the character has to pay double cost for a number of skills before the switch occurs. This point cost can be considered the cost of changing professions, but it is done in a gradual way (and makes sense--you study hard at explorer skills, you find it easier to learn them, eventually). I'm tempted to stick this in my Star Frontiers notebook that I keep for extending the rules. (And I just did.) Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:12:36 -0500 RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-04 04:28:34 EST, you write: >Does everyone go around calling themselves "Murray, the Techex"? Do they say >"I am a specialist in Techex"? "I got a degree from Flamerjam Community >College in "Techex-ology" If you are an engine mechanic, you are an engine >mechanic. And you could be a damn fine engine mechanic who can really wail >on a sax. Doesn't that feel, uhm, nicer? Oh, sure, you can have a >job-title, but today, that kind of guild-hall mentality of "I AM THIS THING" >is kinda passe. Well, I don't know about others, but I (my character) has introduced himself as a Techex. Except to higher ups in Pan-Gal, to whom he says he's the leader of a security team from the Gran Quivera office. I suppose that not everybody would identify themselves with their professional skill area that closely; but my Vrusk pal didn't hang the nickname of 'The Junkman' on me for nothing... 'Mr Human and his Indestructable Junk Show'.... Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:47:18 -0500 RE: Re: More on Professions From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On the otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous amounts of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately simulated in this regard, imho. In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult to learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase with age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily to those who have been a little seasoned by life. Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on APTITUDE and TALENT, Opinions?
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:44:00 -0600 RE: Re: More on Professions From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 10:47 AM 1/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might >find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On the >otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous amounts >of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately >simulated in this regard, imho. > >In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult to >learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase with >age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily >to those who have been a little seasoned by life. > >Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on >APTITUDE and TALENT, > >Opinions? > > I maybe wrong but I think this adds number crunching to a game I'm trying to simplify into a d20 system. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:38:41 -0600 RE: Re: Star Frontiers Classes From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu >Well, it doesn't really stand to reason. Are each of those classes as easy >for everybody, and does everybody learn the same amount from each? I'd say >no...the entire class doesn't make A's, I'm sure. Not in every single class >there is... > >Actually, we use some rules for college with the standard Zebulon's skill and >profession rules. (Think color codes=grades...) There, it doesn't *cost* >any more to take a class (skill) out of your profession, but it's harder to >learn. (If the subject is in your PSA, you get a result shift on the grade >roll.) Of course, if you fail the course, you don't get any skill benefit. > >You're talking about new skills that cost between 3 and 7 points...you >talking Alpha Dawn kind of skills/system? > >Never go on an adventure without a hat! > Indy > >IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman) > > Each skill initially cost four points to buy. I am thinking about giving 30-40 points to improve the three abilities and buy skills. To upgrade a skill would cost between 3 and 7 points. Each skill is a separate skill and is not like AD for when you buy into a skill group you don't get all the skills in that group. Some of the skills I listed fell into catagories for convenience in referencing. The skill list is not complete as of yet. If I include character *classes* like the techex, I'll need to break down the skills into different areas of learning for each profession which is not unreasonable. After the player selects his skills he rolls a d20 and consults a chart that gives him a score of 9-12? (I have to take a look at the chart again) to reflect the learning curve. If a character goes to use that skill in what is not a automatic success situation, he would roll a d20 and have to equal or roll lower to achieve success (barring modifier). Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:50:29 -0600 RE: Starship Construction Rules From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay, I like the starship construction rules in Knight Hawks. But with the S'something (some alien race using asteroids as ships) I beleive I saw a hull size 40. Should I say that after hull size 20 add so many cubic meters to the hull for each size above 20 or what. And what about fusion engines for starships? What would be the stats on those? Any suggestions? Taking care of the accelleration to 1% of lightspeed on the characters, should I add a *gravity net* that equalizes the accelleration force g's to 1 or so no matter how fast you are accellerating? Opinions for updating the Starship Construction rules are wanted. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 5 Jan 96 14:53:21 -0800 RE: Re: Starship Construction Rules From: Andrew L Chang <changa2@watmail.ucr.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Is there any way I could get a summary of the topics that have been disscussed for the past month. The school computer ate all my mail. Thanks! --- Andrew L Chang ********************************************************************** The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 **********************************************************************
Fri, 05 Jan 1996 23:13:14 CST RE: Re: More on Professions <960105104716_32543153@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu re: chosing a profession which is hard for you & language and age well, the easy way to remedy 'I'm in XXXXX but I'm best suited for YYYYY' would be to give some sort of randomly assigned starting points. instead of the standard 10, give 2d10. extend this to cover whatever range you need. sure, language is harder to learn when older in our world. We also don't have hypnotraining, drug-amplifiers for learning, etc. etc. They do. Of course I could see that 10 points (you can easily get more than that in any of the modules) may be a little lean for someone who has been through the US equivalent of High School. This would expecially vary depending on the education system of the planet one is raised on, and likely vary dramatically by how secure one's life was. The rich kids from Triad aren't likely to have nearly as many survival skills as the kids who are fighting for survival against prowling dinosaurs on Pale or fighting against racist Pale Humans on New Pale. roymeo
Sat, 06 Jan 96 13:43:37 -0800 RE: SF screen and mini-mod From: thomas fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I am interested in getting the SF scren and mini-mod. Anybody out there have an extra one or know where to get one? Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:32 -0500 RE: Re: Starship Construction Rules From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-05 16:53:44 EST, you write: >Taking care of the accelleration to 1% of lightspeed on the characters, >should I add a *gravity net* that equalizes the accelleration force g's to 1 >or so no matter how fast you are accellerating? Opinions for updating the >Starship Construction rules are wanted. > >Thankyou >Darryl Fuller. > > All items have a gravity field; smaller ones are much weaker, of course. But if you assume that objects in contact with each other or inside a certain gravity gradient with each other must enter the Void at the same time, the weirdness noted in previous posts gets eliminated. From this, it could follow that jumping can only be done beyond a certain (large) distance from stars and planets so that the gravity decrement is very nearly flat...if another ship got close enough, it might prevent jumping as well. The problem with this approach is calculating the neccessary numbers for gravitational attraction between objects, and deciding where the cutoff should be. If you can consider 'air' to be in contact with itself and anything in it, perhaps just ruling that objects in contact must jump or not jump simultaneously would work. Hey, we're assuming that objects past .1C leave the universe, so maybe this isn't such a big leap after all... Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:30 -0500 RE: Re: More on Professions From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-05 16:46:17 EST, you write: Darryl Fuller >>My problem with the 'double point cost' thing is that in real life, I might >>find out I have a real talent for something that I never dreamed of. On the >>otherhand, I might have not aptitude for something and waste enormous >amounts >>of time (points?) to no avail. The skill thing has never been adequately >>simulated in this regard, imho. >> >>In the real world, skills such as language actually become more difficult to >>learn the older you get. Maybe the point cost for that should increase with >>age. On the otherhand, politics and administration skills come more easily >>to those who have been a little seasoned by life. >> >>Maybe a system lies out there in the realm of the forms that is based on >>APTITUDE and TALENT, >> >>Opinions? >> >> >I maybe wrong but I think this adds number crunching to a game I'm trying to >simplify into a d20 system. > I think you're wrong...this was talking about learning and buying skills, not the resolution of actions/combat. The system, d20 or otherwise, is something a bit different; it has nothing to do with classes, profession, etc which is what the other writer was discussing (evidenced by the title). There are two separate issues; that of resolution of actions and that of professions/learning skills. Let's not get them mixed up. In regards to trying to simplify SF into a d20 system--IMO, the system is already about as simple as I can imagine it being. It could be *changed*, sure; I really don't see the point. If I was going to change the combat system (and I think it works okay as it is in ZG), I'd use the Top Secret/S.I. rules; except that then all the weapon damages would have to be divided by 10 (well, the lasers especially; autopistols, gyrojets and most primitive melee weapons probably shouldn't be reduced as much, but that's another thread). If you've just *gotta* use d20's, divide all the numbers to be rolled by 5, then use a d20 instead of percentile dice. If you want a completely different resolution system, than I think you're on your own, as I don't recall anybody else on the list saying that they thought the system needs changing (Though somebody used Star Wars rules, I think, and somebody else used GURPS...unless I'm thinking of some other group.) I mean, how much simpler do you want? One roll determines if you hit AND how much damage you do. I suppose you could go diceless...but that's a whole other discussion and one I don't know anything about, really. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:39:35 -0500 RE: Re: More on Professions From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-06 00:14:33 EST, you write: Roymeo >sure, language is harder to learn when older in our world. We also >don't have hypnotraining, drug-amplifiers for learning, etc. etc. >They do. Of course I could see that 10 points (you can easily get more >than that in any of the modules) may be a little lean for someone who >has been through the US equivalent of High School. This would >expecially vary depending on the education system of the planet one is >raised on, and likely vary dramatically by how secure one's life was. As I said earlier, we've been giving new players 20 points to start with (except for the mentalist, I think...I'd have to check on that...I think he got the starting levels of disciplines and another 10 points). Roymeo, I think you said before that you gave out 30-50 points, somewhere in that range, I don't know what the rest of you are doing. I think 20 points can build a not unreasonable skill list for a college person, though. Then again, I started my character in Alpha Dawn where you got two skills and that was it; true, for most of them you got a number of subskills--but enforcer/military types didn't get that with weapon skills at all. So I don't see the need to start characters knowing huge lists of skills. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:36:45 -0600 RE: SF Knight Hawks movement From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay, it is agreed that 1 hex on the map represents 10,000 km and that .1c is 12 million km/sec. In KH a turn is 10 minutes. A ship with an ADF of 5 could accelerate at (a little brain power being applied)approximately 3km/sec. (enough g's to squash a body?) 83 into 12,000,000 goes roughly 140,000 seconds or 233 10 minute turns or roughly 40 hours of acceleration to reach .1c. Takes longer for those slower ships. I wouldn't think it would take the sophisticated computers of SF to figure out when to enter the void. With a gravity net, your body would be put under whatever g's you selected (Captain, give me 1 g thankyou very much) but you would still be travelling at the necessary speed to enter the Void. You wouldn't be under so much pressure from the g's (damnit boss, give me one more reason to shoot u). Also instead of having to accelerate for 40 hours (with an ADF of 5 mind you), create a tachyon field around the ship that would suddenly accelerate it to the necessary speed once the nav computer (Let the computer do it, just reduce the time to double check it.) figured out where you were going. This is sci-fi after all. Granted I didnt double check the math. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:03:23 -0600 RE: entering the void From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Just a month or two ago we had a big debate on exactly what was required to enter the void. synopsis for newer people: The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void. The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration. Thus, we have a contradiction. We have a single speed stated which would only take approximately 2 days to reach (thus all trips are 4 days long) or we have the days of acelleration = 1/2LY seperation (thus the speed isn't a set number). I've got all the old posts of discussion if anyone wants them and doesn't want to bother with the archives...send email to me (not the group). roymeo (soon will be a consolidation of auctions dealing with SF stuff)
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:47:30 -0600 RE: From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu These are the auctions I found on rec.games.frp.marketplace that I noticed as having Star Frontiers related stuff. They've been trimmed down to remove other stuff. I don't know any of these people, so, as always, buyer beware. ===================================================================== From: dking@harrier.sasknet.sk.ca (Don King) Subject: DON KINGS AUCTION UPDATE....RIFTS/SHADOWRUN/NON D&D .. DEC30 Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 01:08:23 GMT STAR FRONTIERS *********************** MAIN BOXXED RULES: ALPHA DAWN Condition:2 Min Bid:$2.50 High Bid:$2.50 High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol) Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: KNIGHTHAWKS BOXXED RULES Condition:2 Min Bid:$2.50 High Bid:$2.50 going... High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: SF1 VOLTURNUS, PLANET OF MYSTERY Condition:2 Min Bid:$1.00 High Bid:$1.00 High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol) Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: SF2 STARSPAWN OF VOLTURNUS Condition:2 Min Bid:$1.00 High Bid:$1.00 High Bidder:koziol@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol) Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: SF3 SUNDOWN ON STARMIST Condition:2 Min Bid:$1.00 High Bid:$1.00 going... High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: REFEREE SCREEN Condition:2 Min Bid:$1.00 High Bid:$2.00 High Bidder:William K. McCarthy egn2@columbia.edu Next High Bid:$1.00 Next High Bidder:Shawn Liddick s0195571@hawkmail.monmouth.edu ZEBULONS GUIDE VOL 1 Condition:2 Min Bid:$3.50 High Bid:$3.50 High Bidder:Mike drgntrov@mars.superlink.net Next High Bid: Next High Bidder: ================================================================== From: progich@ix.netcom.com(Philip Rogich ) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace,rec.games.board.marketplace Subject: Bid or Buy Auction: RPGs, War Games & Gaming Magizines Date: 2 Jan 1996 19:25:32 GMT This auction is a on going auction run by Collecters Connection (owned by Philip Rogich). I get new item in all the time. If you don't see what you want ask or check back latter. This is a bid or buy auction you may start the biding at the min bid or buy the item out right at the buy price. All bids must be in whole US dollars. Star Frontiers SF2 Starspawn of Volturnus Bid $3 Buy $6 SFKH1 Dramune Run Bid $3 Buy $6 SFKH3 Face of the Enemy Bid $3 Buy $6 ====================================================================== From: moosemos@ix.netcom.com(Bill Jermacans ) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace Subject: AD&D and other RPGs REDUCED! Date: 2 Jan 1996 22:07:29 GMT ***Boxed sets ($8 each)*** Star Frontiers Knight Hawks (TSR) ============================================================================ From: ryohib@vianet.on.ca (Jack Skellington) Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace Subject: WANTED : Star Frontiers Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 09:03:24 GMT Title says it all...looking to buy TSR's old SF game, main system, and expansions. Anyone interested in selling, please contact : ryohib@vianet.on.ca =========================================================================== From: koziol@xongmao.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Quincey Koziol) Subject: Misc. Old & New RPG supplements and magazines for sale (1/5/96) Followup-To: rec.games.frp.marketplace Date: 5 Jan 1996 21:50:54 GMT ______________________________________________________________________________ Discounts: $100-$199 = 5% Discount $300-$399 = 15% Discount $200-$299 = 10% Discount $400+ = 20% Discount 4th class/surface shipping free for all purchases over $200 ______________________________________________________________________________ Note: The most current version of this listing can also be found on my web-site: http://hawkwind.ncsa.uiuc.edu/ Ares: 17[$8, N] [[contains yazirian cultural weapon (Zamira) and Miniature Use]-roy] [[these are all the dragons he has that has Star Frontiers info in them as far as I know. following this post, I'll send my Star Frontiers Index so you can see easily what is in each magazine.]-roy] DRAGON: 74[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], [$3, Fa], (insert loose)[$5.5, VF], (photocopy of "AD&D Combat Computer")[$5, VF] 84[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (insert loose, back water-damaged)[$2.5, G] 85[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (insert loose)[$4, F] 86[$5, F], (insert loose)[$4, F], (missing cardboard castle)[$5, NM], (missing castle insert)[$4, F] 87[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G] 88[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], ("Elefant Hunt" game punched but included)[$4, F], (photocopy "Elefant Hunt" game)[$4, VF], (photocopy "Elefant Hunt" game, cover loose)[$1, P] 89[$7, NM], [$6, VF], (insert loose)[$4, F] 90[$6, VF], [$5, F] 91[$6, VF], [$5, F] 92[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G] 93[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G] 94[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], [$3, Fa], [$2, P], (insert loose)[$5, VF] 95[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], [$3, Fa], (cover detached)[$2, P], (insert loose)[$5, VF] 96[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$4, G], (cover detached)[$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, P] 97[$7, NM], [$6, VF], [$5, F], (cover loose)[$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, P], 98[$6, VF], [$5, F], [$4, G], (cover detached)[$2, P] 99[$6, VF], [$4, G], [$2, P], (insert loose)[$4, F], (cover detached)[$2, P] 102[$6, NM], [$5, VF], (insert loose)[$4, VF], (cover detached)[$2, P] 103[$6, NM], [$3, G], (cover detached)[$2, G], (photocopy _Unearthed Arcana_ update)[$3, VF], (photocopy of "Unearthed Arcana Update")[$2.5, G], (cover loose)[$2.5, G] 104[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$3, G], (photocopy "Sudden Dawn" Marvel module)[$3, VF], (cover loose)[$2.5, G] 105[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G], (photocopy "Betrayed!" AD&D module)[$3, VF], (cover loose)[$3.5, F] 107[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] [$1, P], (cover loose)[$1.5 Fa] 108[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G], [$2, Fa] 109[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], 109[$3, G] 110[$5, VF], [$4, F] 112[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$2, Fa] 115[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] 120[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] 122[$6, NM], [$3, G], [$2, Fa] 123[$5, VF] 124[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F] 125[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$3, G] 129[$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] 132[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], (orcwars game punched but included)[$3, F] 135[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F] 136[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F], [$3, G] 139[$6, NM], [$5, VF] 144[$6, NM], [$5, VF], [$4, F] 149[$6, NM], [$5, VF] (Star Frontiers) Star Frontiers Boxed Set (no box) (?) [$4, F] Star Frontiers Expanded Game Rules (?) [$2, P] Star Frontiers Knighthawks Boxed Set (contains Alpha Dawn Set also, punched) (7011) [$10, Box Fa-Contents F] Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn Boxed Set (contains Knight Hawks Set also, punched) (7011) [$10, Box Fa-Contents F] 2001: A Space Odyssey (7815) [$16, N], [$15, VF] 2010: Odyssey Two (7816) [$15, N], [$13, VF] SF1: Volturnus, Planet of Mystery (7801) [$6, F], [$5, G] SF2: Starspawn of Volturnus (7802) [$7, VF] SF3: Sundown on Starmist (7803) [$7, VF] SFAC1: Character Record Sheets (7800) [$5, NM] SFKH1: Dramune Run (7805) [$7, VF] SFKH2: Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes (1/3 of Beyond the Frontier) (7808) [$8, NM], [$7, VF] SFKH3: Face of the Enemy (2/3 of Beyond the Frontier) (7810) [$8, NM], [$7, VF] [[quincy seems to be making a living off of buying cheap at auctions and selling the stuff he's bought. If you can find anything anywhere else, I'd encourage it. (especially since he's outbid me at an auction only to sell off the exact items later...)]-roy] ================================================================= roymeo
Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:51:11 -0600 RE: Star Frontiers Index From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu as always, I'm not sure that I have everything here, so if you have or know of something I've missed, PLEASE let me know. Alpha Dawn Boxed Set Basic Rules Expanded Rules Map, 2d10, Counters SF0 Crash On Volturnus Module Knight Hawks Boxed Set Tactical Operations Manual Campaign Book Map, 2d10, Counters SFKH0 Warriors of White Light SFAC1 Character Sheets (AD) SFAC2 ?? Referee's Screen + Assault on Starship Omicron Mini-Mod SFAC3 Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space SF1 Volturnus Planet of Mystery SF2 Starspawn of Volturnus SF3 Sundown on Starmist SF4 Mission to Alcazzar SF5 Bugs In The System SF6 Dark Side of the Moon SFKH1 Dramune Run SFKH2 Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes SFKH3 Face of the Enemy SFKH4 The War Machine 2001 A Space Odyssey 2010 Odyssey Two _ENDLESS QUEST Books_: These are about a Jr High reading level. #8 Villains of Volturnus #17 Captive Planet #24 Mission on Artule (exceptionally BAD, Earth is in the system, no other UPF character races but 6 anon. Yaz thugs. Not really StarFron) __DRAGON MAGAZINE__ __TITLE__ __SUBJECT__ __SOURCE__ Blastoff! First Look at SF Review Dragon 65 The SF 'Universe' Detailed Review Dragon 74 Zethra, The New Race Dragon 84 StarQuestions Q&A (from Polyhedrons) Dragon 85 Fast and Deadly Starships Dragon 86 Freeze! Star Law! Law Enforcement Dragon 87 Battle of Ebony Eyes Mini-Mod, Black Holes Dragon 88 StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 88 Yachts and Privateers Return Starships Dragon 88 The Mighty Mega-Corporations Mega-Corps, History(in Zeb) Dragon 89 Mega-Corporations o.t. Frontier Mega-Corps, History(in Zeb) Dragon 90 Careers in Star Law Law Enforcement Dragon 91 Day of the Juggernaut Mini-Mod, Huge Ship Dragon 91 StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 92 Rare Wines and Ready Cash Agricultural Trade Dragon 93 From Anarchy to Empire Governments Dragon 94 Zuraqqor Strike Back, The New Race, Mini-Mod, Starships Dragon 95 Coming of the S'sessu, The New Race, Sathar Dragon 96 StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 97 StarQuestions Q&A Dragon 98 Volturnus Connection, The Volturnus Dragon 98 Tanks a Lot! Vehicle Combat Dragon 99 SilverTwin Star Law Enforcement, Vehicle Dragon 102 Saurians, The New Race Dragon 103 Tanks Again! Vehicle Combat Dragon 103 Star Law Returns Law Enforcement Dragon 104 Expanding the Frontier Exploring Dragon 105 Tote That Barge! Interstellar Economics Dragon 107 Old Yazirians Never Die Age and Aging Dragon 108 Patriots, Terrorists, & Spies Cults Dragon 109 Going For a Swim? Underwater Adventures Dragon 110 For a Fistfull of Credits New Items Dragon 112 Interstellar Armory, A New Starship Arms Dragon 115 Here Comes the Cavalry Warfare Dragon 120 Leader of the Pack, The Leadership Dragon 122 Whole-Earth Ecology, The Aliens Dragon 123 Shot in the Arm, A Damage System Dragon 124 Second Look at Zebulon's Guide Zeb Guide Errata Dragon 125 Armored and Dangerous Powered Armor Dragon 129 Frontiers of Design, The Starship Building System Dragon 132 Sage Advice Q&A, AD, Zeb Guide Dragon 135 Damage Control--Report! Starship Combat Dragon 136 ("Jetboots, Dont fail me now!") revised movement rules (Dragon 139) Sage Advice Q&A, DD, ADD, SF Dragon 144 From Freighters to Flying Boats Ships, Boats, Ocean Dragon 149 __POLYHEDRON NEWSZINE (RPGA)__ 9 SF review:pg5 + Encounters:pg8 10 dispel confusion:pg7 [&dc] (11) (dispel confusion:pg9) (12) (KH 'feature' review?:pg14) + [dispel confusion:pg12] (13) (Raid on Theseus KH:pg20) + (dispel confusion:pg7) 14 Ambush on Lossend SF:pg22-23 + dispel confusion:pg11 (15) (cardstock reference sheet KH) + (dispel confusion:pg13) (16) (dispel confusion:pg32-33) (17) [dispel confusion:pg32-33] 18 Layover at Lossend SF:pg25 + dispel confusion:pg30-31 [&dc] (19) (The Laser Pod KH:pg28-29) + (dispel confusion:pg32) (20) The Proton Beam:pg8-9 + dispel confusion:pg30 (21) Take Command of a Titan!:pg10-11 (22) Of Great Ships and Captains:p26-28 + dispel confusion:pg25 (27) dispel confusion:pg26 (31) (dispel confusion:pg29) NOTE: I do not own anything in ()'s scanned softcopy in []'s __Ares Magazine__ (14) ??? (15) Von Neumann machines, Into the Void module 17 Yazirian Cultural Weapon + Miniature Use (Ares Special Edition #2) Frontiers of the Mind(psionics) __Miniatures__ Spacefarers (12) Player Characters/Spacers(?) (12) Robots (6) Federation Ships (6)(with miniatures rules conversions) Sathar and Pirate Ships (6) (Yachts and Privateers(6)) (Vehicles) (vaporware??: rules for new vehicles like grav tanks) (various blisterpacks) __THE LIVING GALAXY__ (from POLYHEDRON) Database Is Your Friend, The Polyhedron 51 Brainstorming The Universe Polyhedron 52 No Two Urban Jungles Should Be Alike Polyhedron 53 Satellites: Part 1 Polyhedron 54 Satellites: Part 2 Polyhedron 55 Opponents Make The World Go Round Polyhedron 57 The Alienization of Alien Nations Polyhedron 58 Recycling Planets Polyhedron 59 Spacecraft PC, Part I Polyhedron 60 Spacecraft PC, Part II Polyhedron 61 Spacecraft PC, Part III Polyhedron 62 Flawed Gems Shine The Brightest Polyhedron 63 Death Takes A Holiday Polyhedron 64 A Thrill in Every Port Polyhedron 65 All That Glitters Sure Is Nice: Part I Polyhedron 66 All That Glitters Sure Is Nice: Part II Polyhedron 67 To The Stars Polyhedron 68 Do Starships Dream Of Jumpspace sheep? Polyhedron 69 Better Heroes, Better Cities Polyhedron 70 A Little Planet Looks Awfully Big Close Up: Part 1 Polyhedron 71 A Little Planet Looks Awfully Big Close Up: Part 2 Polyhedron 72 No World Like Home Polyhedron 73 A Sprinkling of Stardust: Odds and Ends for Campaigns Polyhedron 74 Case of the Missing Adventures Polyhedron 75 Save the Last Danse Macabre For Me Polyhedron 76 Adventures From Your Library, Part 1 Polyhedron 77 Weirdo SF Adventurers Polyhedron 78 Ice Dwarfs and Magsails Polyhedron 79 Barbarian Planets I Polyhedron 80 Barbarian Planets II Polyhedron 81 A Stellar Game Master Is Made, Not Born Polyhedron 82 Stellar Game Master, Part 2 Polyhedron 83 Reshaping History For Fun And Games Polyhedron 84 In The National Interest: Countries On Other Worlds Polyhedron 85 Flora, Fauna, And The Alien Question Polyhedron 86 Creating NPC's for Adventures Polyhedron 87 Not Quite 101 Uses For A Dead Module(using SF Modules) Polyhedron 88 Epic Campaigns: one Polyhedron 89 Epic Campaigns: two Polyhedron 90 Epic Campaigns: three Polyhedron 91 Times Three Adventure Creation Method Polyhedron 92 One-Character Adventures: one Polyhedron 93 One-Character Adventures: two Polyhedron 94 Military History and Science Fiction Campaigns Polyhedron 95 Many Aliens of Earth, The Polyhedron 96 Whither The Weather? Polyhedron 97 Idea Catcher: Generating Ideas Polyhedron 98 New View of Space Colonies Polyhedron 99 Fantasy Fixes for SF Gaming's Black Holes Polyhedron 101 Carrots, Sticks, and Mysteries in Space Polyhedron 103 TV Shows: one Polyhedron 104 TV Shows: two Polyhedron 105 TV Shows: three Polyhedron 106 Adventure Driver Polyhedron 107 Alternate Histories: one Polyhedron 108 Alternate Histories: two Polyhedron 109 Alternate Histories: three Polyhedron 110 roymeo http://www.public.iastate.edu/~roymeo/StarFron/sfpage.html itemlist.html (this list)
Fri, 5 Jan 96 09:30:34 EST RE: RE: entering the void From: "Eric Pawtowski" <dpawtows@vt.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In Message Sat, 6 Jan 1996 22:03:23 -0600, roymeo@iastate.edu writes: > >Just a month or two ago we had a big debate on exactly what was >required to enter the void. > >synopsis for newer people: >The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void. >The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to >the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to >spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration. We've adopted a completely different style. To make a journey via the void (or hyperspace): 1.Achieve a good velocity relative to the local gravity well. Equal to about a few hours acceleration at basic freighter accelerations. 2. Let computer spend a while thinking about hyperspace co-ordinates and activate jump engines. Ship dissapears from normal space, appears in hyperspace. The jump engines are a black box in the engineering section that provides no thrust but takes a lot of power. 3.Fly through hyperspace. Engines are not used. Normal times of one day per light-year are what you get when you coast from fly point to point. That time can be trimed by up to half if you use your engines and "surf" the gravitational gradients properly. There are no know insturments that can detect gravitational gradients in hyperspace. Lately, however, a few random expierences hyperspace pilots have developed the ability to feel gravitational gradients without insturments. None of them know how they do it. It works in normal space, too- they can tell if a freighter is carrying an extremely dense cargo just by being near it, for instance. The UPF is *VERY* interested in how this works, but have had no luck figureing it out. Trying to use your engines without the ability to sense gravitational fields tends to do unpredicable things to your course, you rarely end up anywhere near where you thought you were. 4. Exit hyperspace by activating jump engines at your destination. Areas of hyperspace that correspond to gravity wells in real space (10,000 km in real space per Earth mass) are not navagable. 5. Use engines to compensate for velocity differences- you exit hyperspace with the same velocity (relative to the galactic core) that you had when you entered. As most of you can probably tell, this is based heavily off of the way that hyperspace works in "Babylon 5". The bit about being able to "feel" through hyperspace is an ongoing plot point. The PC team's pilot reciently developed that ability, and we know of three or four other civilian pilots who can do it. We also found a particularly bizzare form of hyperspace travel that works hundreds of times faster than normal hyperspace travel, but only when moving along a cosmic string. There is only one known string in known space- one end passes through a black hole (ships going that way are destroyed) the other end terminates at the border of a nasty race of living rock-people who tried invading UPF space once. The rock people were not aware that there is any kind of hyperspace travel other than the cosmic string kind. They were a fun bunch. Main weapons were electrolasers. Eric -- epawtows@vt.edu--------------------------------------------------- Technicon 13- SF&F return to the New River Valley in SW VA! March 22-24, 1996! L.E. Modesitt, Lori&Corey Cole, Ruth Thompson
Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:54:29 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-06 23:21:03 EST, you write: >synopsis for newer people: >The rules state a .01C speed required to enter the void. >The rules also state that a trip takes a number of days equal to >the light year seperation, with half being acceleration, a couple minutes to >spin the ship around and void, half being decelleration. > >Thus, we have a contradiction. We have a single speed stated which would >only take approximately 2 days to reach (thus all trips are 4 days long) or >we have the days of acelleration = 1/2LY seperation (thus the speed isn't >a set number). The length of the trip as stated (1 day per ly) is the time required by the rules to calculate the jump safely (KH). A ship may well be able to accelerate up to .1c and jump before that time; but either the calculations aren't finished and the ship misjumps (NOT a good idea) or the calculations are rushed and you might end up where you want; but you might not (the odds depend on the skill of the astrogator and by how much the calculation time was shortened). Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:17:51 -0600 RE: Starship Construction From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay, heres what I am going to do: I am going to add a *gravity net* that equalizes the g force of acceleration inside the ship so that characters don't get crushed. Also crew cabins are going to take up 6 cubic meters. That makes for a 3m x 2m room. Each cubic meter of ship is going to take up .5 metric tons. The bridge is going to seat 3 cubic meters per crew and take up 5% of the total ship volume to account for ship computers and equipment. A *Tachyon Field Generator* (or a little black box as someone put it) will be added. It will no longer take acceleration to .1c to make a jump. Instead the *Tachyon Field Generator* will instantly propel the ship into the Void. It will take 1 day per lite year to reach the destination. Of course it still depends on your navigation computer in how much time it takes to compute the course. This will be measured in turns instead of hours. I'm sure todays technology as demonstrated by Star WArs (SDI) and interferometer techniques can make that possible. The question is, should there be a minimum speed achieved and should you be at least one diameter away from a planet to attempt a jump. Engines will be powerplants to provide power to shipboard equipment. Fusion engines are being added. Anyone want to enter there stats of what a fusion engine should cost and do feel free. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Sun, 07 Jan 1996 22:23:10 CST RE: Re: entering the void <960107185402_109319330@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Indy said: >The length of the trip as stated (1 day per ly) is the time required by >the rules to calculate the jump safely (KH). A ship may well be able >to accelerate up to .1c and jump before that time; but either the >calculations aren't finished and the ship misjumps (NOT a good idea) or >the calculations are rushed and you might end up where you want; but you >might not (the odds depend on the skill of the astrogator and by how >much the calculation time was shortened). Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25. So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days decelleration. The 1/2 LY acc/dec is supported by the cover of the Warriors of White Light module as well. roymeo
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:03:03 +1100 RE: Re: entering the void From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu G'day Folks! romeyo@iastate.edu writes : > So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to > program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days > travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days > decelleration. > > The 1/2 LY acc/dec is supported by the cover of the Warriors of White > Light module as well. ... and by some basic calculations. I did a mini-scenario recently in which an understanding of the mechanics of a void-jump was rather crucial. After reading carefully the descriptions in Alpha Dawn and Zebulon's Guide, I realised too that the actual time in the void was measured in seconds, not days. On this assumption, and the description of the acceleration/ deceleration process described, I calculated how long an average ship would take to accelerate from a stationary attitude (relative to a nearby star) to 0.1c, assuming an acceleration of 1g. The time taken was about 3.5 days. Thus, a jump (any jump) should take between 7 and 8 days. I thought this was pretty cool, considering the average jump is about 8 days. Just to check, I calculated the average distance covered during this acceleration phase. If the ship was leaving Earth, it would be ready to enter the void near the orbit of Jupiter. This supports the need for a jump - vast distances are still covered in the actual jump rather than in the accelerating to the jump. In the mini-module, one second of travel in the void covered one light-year. The characters were supposed to be travelling along a known starlane, and their jump was supposed to be eight seconds long. However, a malfunction in ther drive computer caused the jump to be closer to 40 seconds long (Gasp!) This >just happened< to put them deep into Sathar territory... Have I already told you guys this stuff? Did I tell you about the two Vrusk having sex while the jump was happening? Romeyo goes on to say : > Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year > that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25. Why so long, especially if the route is well travelled (and thus assumed to be well documented)? Surely a well-known route can just be downloaded from publically accessible databases? - Wes
Sun, 07 Jan 1996 23:13:36 CST RE: Re: entering the void <9601080503.AA02949@durin> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation programs which give a second to second calculation of the route downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee. but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per light year (+ time for sleep, etc.). My vision of the programmed calculations would likely be for a certain time-frame for the ship (and not able to be reliably purchased very far ahead). Happen to run into pirates on the way to jump velocity? Going to have to pay for new calculations. These calculations would probably be able to be modified by an astrogator for less than the 10hr/LY... Of course if the Malthar doesn't like you, he could have your ship fed really bad coordinates. roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 96 01:59:35 EST RE: MECH: travel, d20, and TS SI From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> I will discuss the folling: space travel d20 system and damage SPACE TRAVEL: OK, Ok, anyone with half of a brain has looked at the two sets of rules on void travel and gone, 'huh?'. So, let's finally agree to some basic ways one can settle the problem of void tavel. ASSUMPTIONS 1) travel in space has no 'inertial dampener' like in Star Trek. As per relativity, inertia is basically ewual to gravity, so when we accelerate at 1g, that means we feel 1 earth gravity of force pulling at our mass (which is now equal to our weight). Travel at more than 1g is uncomfortable in the long run, and (I guess) 5g travel for more than a few minutes is impossible. Long term high g acceleration is impossible. 2) At around .1 of the speed of light, some sort of field, device, or other means kicks in, whether caused by building materials, drives, or WHATEVER (be creative) so that a ship enters the void and goes FTL (Note that in one solution below, this assumption does not apply). This assumption makes sure matter in the 'natural' world does not 'evaporate' at .1 g, but still allows for void jumps. OK, so what does that mean? That means that, according to this, ALL of the SF and KH stats are wrong. Great. Here are ways to fix the problem: 1) Ships that go farther take a greater amount of speed. Guess what? A ship that is going 8 LY away takes (gasp!) * 4 * days of acceleration and 4 days of decelleration. OK, the .1 LY speed is violated, but isn't that a small price to pay for consistancy in ALL of the rest of the material? Also, as a consequence, hexes may have to be changed from 10,000 kilometers to some other size, but who cares? honostly, who out there has made it a POINT to make every hex 10,000 KM, and any deviation will just ruin their game? 2) Void travel is not instantaneous. It takes a minimal amount of acceleration to get to 'jump' speed (or heck, the speed is the same but each jump takes at least 3.5 days EACH of acc/dec) is very low, but while in void travel one moves approximately 1 LY a day. Everything published works, except for the idea of a 'jump' that takes only 15 seconds. 3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15 second jump. Of course, travel time can be siminished by higher acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems. You be the judge. Ok, here's the breakdown: #1 keeps all of the rules intact but challenges assumption #2 in the arena of speed. Idea #2 keeps the rules intact but challenges the idea of a 15 second jump from assuption #2. Idea #3 challenges #2 almost completely and changes the rules. So that's that: Figure out what poison you are going to take and drink like Socrates, for there is NO WAY that this discussion can ever be resolved. And one more thing. If we are going to get really technical about space travel, tehn we have to throw the whole spaceship combat system out the window for one reason: 10 minutes at 1 g does not get you going at even 1 hex per turn. A fighter, to go accelerate 5 hexes per turn, would have to go 8 g's for 10 minutes. Right. However, the combat system works bery well, so instead of keeping the hex as 10,000 km as a yardstick, say that a hex=1 hex for purposes of movement. Sure, that gives you nothing to base the size of the hex upon except the relation of how big or how fast already established things are/go, but it is just much easier to play with IN A GAME. (BTW: for those who need a measuring stick: if 1 hex=6000 km, that means an ion drive ship with ADF of 1 can still make jumps, etc. just as fast as atomic ships, but fighters still pull around 5 g's for ten minutes in combat. Again, pick your poison.) Also BTW: If knowledgable SFer out there has calucualted the various acceleration times to .1g, acceleration per minute for combat, etc. PLEASE post these fighures so we can all check our math and have a reference for future discussion. I have worked it out about three times and come up with the conclusion that SF's math is screwed up, but I fear I do not have the correct equations, etc. SF and Top SECRET combat merge: For those of you who know Top Secret/S.I. , how can one integrate it into a SF game rules. Here are some prototypes of what I have envisioned: a) Damage, like martial arts, is based on the first die, but they have a modifier (close to the 'd' of damage they do) as a bonus. b) How does one distribute damage that occurs over an extended area? Falling, poison, and depressurization would all be examples. Should falling be whatever area landed first? poison take off points from the injection site out, 1 at a time (or from the stomach then head, then limbs if injested?), is depressurization a 'lung' thing? How have others solved this? c) anybody actually PLAYTESTED this out? If so, how did it work in terms of game balance? Well, that should be all: me, delmar watkins
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 12:47:31 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to say that travel through the void would appear instantaneous to the passengers, but in real time, X number of days would have passed for X number of light years? Since space isn't consistent, why should time be? TimC27
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:55 -0500 RE: Re: MECH: travel, d20, and TS SI From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-08 02:40:25 EST, you write: (Delmar Watkins) >SF and Top SECRET combat merge: For those of you who know Top Secret/S.I. >, how can one integrate it into a SF game rules. Here are some >prototypes of what I have envisioned: >a) Damage, like martial arts, is based on the first die, but they > have a modifier (close to the 'd' of damage they do) as a bonus. >b) How does one distribute damage that occurs over an extended area? > Falling, poison, and depressurization would all be examples. > Should falling be whatever area landed first? poison take off > points from the injection site out, 1 at a time (or from the stomach > then head, then limbs if injested?), is depressurization a 'lung' > thing? How have others solved this? >c) anybody actually PLAYTESTED this out? If so, how did it work > in terms of game balance? > > Being the person who brought up TS/SI in the first place, maybe I should have mentioned the rules for it. Let me expand/clarify some things mentioned here. a) Yes, damage is based on the first die but for unarmed attacks only. Any damage done with a weapon, either hand to hand or a firearm, has it's own die roll. Hit location is also based on the die roll (the ones die, instead of the tens die as damage is). Also, you have temporary (bruise) and permanent (wound) damage; but if you take temp damage and then permanent damage to the same area, the perm damage goes over the temp damage first (ie, you take 4 points temp; then 2 points perm; you now have 2 points perm dam and 2 points temp dam to that area). b) Poison, and other whole body effects are damage done to CON(stitution); basically like Stamina; except that it's *also* divided by 10 among the 10 hit locations. Yes, essentially you have two different pools of hit points; one for the locations and another for the whole body. But when you reach 1/2 CON, you have to make a check (at 1/2 CON or go unconscious; same for 1/4 CON) so it's not so unreasonable. c) I've played a little bit of TS/SI; not as much as I'd like (find me a GM, I'll play...); never tried it for SF. There is a supplement (F.R.E.E. Lancers) for running super-agents in the near future; they've got some laser stats, but still we're not anywhere near the SF level of equipment available, I'd say. On the plus side, there's actually a page and a half on bionics... Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:04:48 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-07 23:25:08 EST, you write: (Roymeo) >Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each light-year >that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25. > >So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to >program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days >travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days >decelleration. Okay, you're right...but so am I, I believe. As follows: 10 hours for each light-year for plotting, 8 hours sleep, ~2 hours for eating, any conversations with other players, trying to find the (non-existant) bathroom (oops! This isn't Star Trek)...and that's one day. Remember, we use 20 hour days in Star Frontiers. So, given the significant figures (namely, only one), my posting of 1 day per ly is the same as your 18-20 hours per ly. Because the boardgame KH 1day/2ly accellaration/decc. is more to get the trips to equal 1day/ly as far as I can tell. Accelleration to .1C will take (12,000,000km/hour / 10,000 km/hex)=1200 hex/hour; 1 ADF=1 hex/10min; 1200 hex/hour / 6 hex/hour=200 ADF points. A 1 ADF ship can thus reach jump speed in 200*10 min=2000 min or 33 hours; faster ships will hit it proportionately faster, of course. 1day/2ly makes absolutely no sense other than from a wargaming/board game perspective; after all, the speed required to jump into the void doesn't *increase* for longer jumps, does it? (And you thought the Void rules as they *are* are screwy...) Not to mention that they don't do navigation there...that figure subsumes them, assuming we're reading the same passages in the KH booklet. So, if you don't want to use the 1 day/ly (Alpha Dawn p 49) in the rules, you can add in the deceleration time (and acceleration time, if you go with the 'can't accelerate til the navigation's done' which I think is bogus) to the navigation time of 10 hours/ly + sleep + misc (the guy *does* take showers and eat, right?)--call it 20 hours/ly or 1 day. Alternatively, we could basically junk the existing rules and rewrite them to make better sense (keeping the time/skill requirements approximately the same, preferably, on the average). (As Delmar Watkins is proprosing in another post. Might be a good idea.) Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:46:37 +1100 RE: Re: entering the void From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu More on void jumps. Romeyo says : > I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation > programs which give a second to second calculation of the route > downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee. And if the fees truly were exhorbitant, a freight company wishing to buy the rights for a new route would have to balance the immediate cost against the proposed long-term profit (for those PCs who run a freighter). Further, exploring new lanes becomes much more profitable. Romeyo continues : > but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per > light year (+ time for sleep, etc.). Personally, "Damn the rules!" > These calculations would probably be able to be modified by an > astrogator for less than the 10hr/LY... > Of course if the Malthar doesn't like you, he could have your ship fed > really bad coordinates. Alternatively, yes, it takes a mere human 10 hours per light year to plot a course... if he were doing it by hand. If, of course, he just pays K'zit-Kar SpacePort Control the administration charge of a mere zillion credits to download the course directly into the Navicomp, it may take but 10 minutes... or 10 days (we are talking about a bureaucracy here). Large amounts of time could be wasted "waiting for clearance" - having two starships pass through the same point in voidspace at the same time might be a bit messy. Dwatk00 says : > OK, so what does that mean? That means that, according to this, ALL of > the SF and KH stats are wrong. Great. Oh, no! Is there a TSR product which doesn't have minor continuity problems? Is there a role-playing game at all (bar Toon)? By the by, I'm mighty close to finishing the Traveller-2300 Solar System Generator program (it's in Pascal at the moment, but will be turned into C very soon, and be made generally available :-). While trying to figure out the tables supplied, I discovered that someone at GDW had a reasonably good eye for detail. I could verify almost all of the tables by scientific cross-references or calculation. However, one of the tables used the wrong equation. Pop quiz: do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation? Dwatk00 continues : > Here are ways to fix the problem: > 1) Blah. > 2) Blah, Blah. > 3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and > this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in > the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15 > second jump. Of course, travel time can be diminished by higher > acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems. I believe this to be the best option, not only because it makes sense, but because it introduces many more role-playing possibilities. The average trip (directly from anywhere to anywhere) may take around 8 days regardless of distance, but some firms >will< offer faster trips ("business class", freight haulage) or slower ones ("love boat" style cruise ships). Beings from different worlds may preferentially take a slower trip (travelling at 0.8g, for example) because their home world has a gravity of 0.8g, and thus they feel more comfortable. Pirates, smugglers and military will probably go faster (but then, they always do!), yet most trips will still only travel at 0.9g to 1.1g, if for no other reason than the average Joe who works on the ship is going to get really pissed off when he gets osteoperosis, or liver damage, or whatever, thus the unions force the commercial shipping companies to maintain acceleration to strictly controlled bands. My "moral of the story" is that whatever scheme you choose to use in your game should not only (a) make sense, and (b) attempt to be consistent with the rules as presented, but also (c) be interesting enough so that it suggests campaign plot ideas & side issues (that is, things which may become part of the storyline of the game, and thus be of direct interest to the players). - Wes
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:43:42 -0600 RE: just a tad off-topic From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction. one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition? I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main rules and am not sure. roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 20:59:19 CST RE: Re: entering the void <9601080503.AA02949@durin> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wes said: >Romeyo goes on to say : >> Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each >>light-year that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25. >Why so long, especially if the route is well travelled (and thus assumed >to be well documented)? Surely a well-known route can just be downloaded >from publically accessible databases? >- Wes well, as someone noted, 1g accelleration gets you from earth to about the orbit of Jupiter. Sure, everything is documented, but old documents will do you little good. Planets revolving about suns, suns moving relative to each other, other gravity wells to avoid/which influence, etc. Would do no good to skip on calculations and end up out by 'jupiter' when the 'earth' you're trying to get to is on the opposite side of the sun. Actually I was somewhat surprised that the 1g accelleration would take one such a 'little' distance. I wonder...this distance (jupiter's orbit) is starting to sound a lot like the 100-diameter limit from Traveller... roymeo
Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:11:53 -0600 RE: that void debate From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu first, I think for clarity, when we're discussing this, we ought to make sure we're indicating whether we're talking about canon or what we really use. Someone who is using long durations of 'void' travel time is certainly interesting and relevant to us for consideration to use personally, but it doesn't do much good in way of nailing down exactly what the rules (could) mean. So, this next bit is about the canon. I'm beginning to wonder, without re-reading the rulebooks, is the 1%c figure used often, or is it just mentioned at the beginning? If it was mentioned only (or only concretely) at the little intro blurb, then it is far more explainable as something someone tacked in to make the manual read well. personally: I'm sticking to the 1day/LY for travel figure. I like having the distance determine the time taken, I don't want Lynchpin to be a simple 4days away. I also don't like the various methods of upping the accelleration to huge figures, because 1) that turns a good simple system into a table of numbers (if I wanted that I'd be playing with traveller rules). 2) there would be little to control the PC's from jaunting everywhere at breakneck speed. Just like the characters with 'cursed swords' who cut off their arms because it's an easy way to fix the problem and they don't feel the pain. now, I might be convinced to use smaller accelerations in the case of extra sensitive beings, and grudginly would allow some race of heavyworlders to go faster (guess how many of those I'll introduce!) So, I'm of the 'voiding module' various accelerations based on 1/2LY distance school. roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 21:20:40 CST RE: Re: entering the void <960108124730_109972147@emout05.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu TimC: >Wouldn't the most obvious solution be to say that travel through the >void would appear instantaneous to the passengers, but in real time, X >number of days would have passed for X number of light years? while this does lead to some neat things like the rich roaming the starlanes to 'stay young' I think this still causes some problems with canon. How long do the travellers need to acc/dec? if it is more than 2 days to reach 1%c, then we've already got more than the 4 days needed to make the small jumps. And if it is only something like .5day to reach an arbitrary jump speed, with the x number of days as unexperienced by the travellers, we've dramatically cut down on the amount of time that characters can interact with their surroundings. I guess that's one reason I like the LY times. they give plenty of time for shipboard interaction and intrigues. Would be little fun to take a pleasure cruise about the frontier if everything went too fast. roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 22:04:54 CST RE: Re: entering the void <960108130447_85955793@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Indy wrote: >In a message dated 96-01-07 23:25:08 EST, you write: (Roymeo) >>Sorry. "Normal plotting time for a jump is 10 hours for each >>light-year that will be jumped." SFKH Campaign Books pg 25. >> >>So, in actuality, one generally must spend 10xLY hours (+sleep etc.) to >>program the route to where you are going, then spend 1/2LY days >>travelling to void-speed, void for a couple seconds, then 1/2LY days >>decelleration. >Okay, you're right...but so am I, I believe. As follows: 10 hours for >each light-year for plotting, 8 hours sleep, ~2 hours for eating, any >conversations with other players, trying to find the (non-existant) >bathroom (oops! This isn't Star Trek)...and that's one day. Remember, >we use 20 hour days in Star Frontiers. Ok, you caught me with that last bit. I use a nonstandard 25 hour day. Mostly because I myself seem to have an internal clock running on something like a 30 hour day, it seems very very strange for me to consider a 20 hour day cycle. Of course I never really considered the impact of a 25 hour day upon such things as travel (cause I personally hold the 1%c thing as a goof). Still, as you say, counting each 10 hours as a entire day with sleep, etc., we have astrogation required for a 9LY trip to be 9 days. I do not think it will do much good to have the astrogator working after you've jumped the void. So even if you were accellerating while calculating, you still have the 1.65 day (33hours) decelleration that you calculated below. This being true, we then have no easy numbers for the amount of travel needed. Aside from the 1%c figure given (pg 3), the only easily found 'stat' in the book is on page 33: "After several days of accelleration, the ship should be ready to make its jump through the Void." Though vague, this doesn't bode well for what you calculate below. Yes, I suppose that though I'm arguing canon, I'm doing it in a way to support what I already believe. You'd think I'd had a lot of experience with theological debates or something. On that note: pg 56 Transit Boxes "The paths of light blue boxes between systems mark the known travel routes in the Frontier. The boxes are "transit boxes." Each transit box marks one day of acceleration or deceleration along that route. Thus, transit boxes measure speed, not distance." So, this would to me, be a pretty good indication that someone was admitting that it does take more speed to go further. This quote also reminded me that acceleration and deceleration have one 'l' each. Also, page 58 which for a bit had me boggled: Accelerated Movement (Risk Jumping) "Ships with an ADF of 2 or more can move two transit boxes per day. Ships with an ADF of 3 or more can move three transit boxes per day. No ship can move more than three transit boxes per day, because such extreem, prolonged acceleration would disable the crew." [various misjump probabilities are possible, though] Now, we know the boxes are acceleration, so it must be the acceleration which is required here, not the days beforehand for astrogation. Though looking at this, I can see no evidence anywhere of the astrogators taking up any time. Either they ignored it for playability, or you are supposed to know to use that. I suppose it would also be possible if you're going to allow running calculations for the astrogator to be working on the jump out of the system that you are currently approaching. Seems like the astrogator would be a dull boy, though, all work and no play. >So, given the significant figures (namely, only one), my posting of 1 >day per ly is the same as your 18-20 hours per ly. Because the >boardgame KH 1day/2ly accellaration/decc. is more to get the trips to >equal 1day/ly as far as I can tell. Accelleration to .1C will take >(12,000,000km/hour / 10,000 km/hex)=1200 hex/hour; 1 ADF=1 hex/10min; >1200 hex/hour / 6 hex/hour=200 ADF points. A 1 ADF ship can thus reach >jump speed in 200*10 min=2000 min or 33 hours; faster ships will hit it >proportionately faster, of course. 1day/2ly makes absolutely no sense >other than from a wargaming/board game perspective; after all, the speed >required to jump into the void doesn't *increase* for longer jumps, does >it? see above. :) apparently so. > (And you thought the Void rules as they *are* are screwy...) Not >to mention that they don't do navigation there...that figure subsumes >them, assuming we're reading the same passages in the KH booklet. nah. I just thought the 1%c figure wasn't an absolute. still do >So, if you don't want to use the 1 day/ly (Alpha Dawn p 49) in the >rules, you can add in the deceleration time (and acceleration time, if >you go with the 'can't accelerate til the navigation's done' which I >think is bogus) to the navigation time of 10 hours/ly + sleep + misc >(the guy *does* take showers and eat, right?)--call it 20 hours/ly or 1 >day. Well, with the universe expanding (cept for Brooklyn) and the ships engines having a touch of a flux of output and that huge asteroid you just passed pulling the ship a touch off plotted course, I see the astrogator as a busy little being making minute corrections as you are accelerating. If plotting takes 10hours/LY, it would seem that these sorts of things need to be accounted for. >Alternatively, we could basically junk the existing rules and rewrite >them to make better sense (keeping the time/skill requirements >approximately the same, preferably, on the average). (As Delmar Watkins >is proprosing in another post. Might be a good idea.) Well, I think that this presentation of KH canon might help shed a touch more light. I'll say it again, personally it just seems one should ignore the 1%c figure. (playing with astrogation time is a seperate issue, and I would certainly support lowing the number from 10hours/LY, but not allow calculation enroute). roymeo
Mon, 08 Jan 1996 22:25:51 CST RE: Re: entering the void <9601082146.AA03028@durin> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wes said: >Romeyo says : roymeo. cause I'm roy. geeze, you'll never find my webpages with that spelling. :) >> I agree with wes, generally the known starlanes should have astrogation >> programs which give a second to second calculation of the route >> downloadable for a small (or exhorbitant) fee. >And if the fees truly were exhorbitant, a freight company wishing to >buy the rights for a new route would have to balance the immediate cost >against the proposed long-term profit (for those PCs who run a >freighter). >Further, exploring new lanes becomes much more profitable. Well, I was thinking more on the lines of each time one wished to go from A to B, one would have to buy new calculations. This wouldn't be much, just enough to make the players have to decide whether the time saved for astrogation was worth the credits. And now that i consider it, wouldn't Trans-Travel have a station somewhere staffed fulltime by astrogators who made the calculations for each ship and then fed them to the actual ships which are travelling? >Romeyo continues : [roy-me-o] >> but, 'by the rules' the astrogator would have to spend 10 hours per >> light year (+ time for sleep, etc.). >Personally, "Damn the rules!" *nods* It was just my unconscious thought to seperate the canon discussion from the 'I do this' thing. If you're using something like the Dune method of void jumping, it won't help me figure out what to do with the 1%c number. >Pop quiz: >do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation? depends upon how many anal physics majors you have in your campaign. I'd use the chart unless it is wildly inaccurate/unplayable/causes further problems down the line/causes too much suspension of disbelief. >Dwatk00 continues : >> 3) Accerlation takes 3.5 days, decceleration an equal amount, and >> this is the same for all jumps. NOT consistant with the figures in >> the books, but DOES keep intact the idea of .1 LY speed for a 15 >> second jump. Of course, travel time can be diminished by higher >> acceleration at the expense of possible hull/medical problems. >I believe this to be the best option, not only because it makes sense, >but because it introduces many more role-playing possibilities. I dunno. I think the various times required open up more possibilities. On the run, Star Law after you but having no clue where you jumped to from Prenglar, do you go the small jump, or the long jump? And when you get to start trying to pull 18LY stunts, why should that be the same as the 1LY jump from MY vrusk homeworld/plague planet to the Ebony Eyes binary blackhole. Though this 1LY thing may make me require some sort of minimum acceleration time for a minimum speed. >My "moral of the story" is that whatever scheme you choose to use in >your game should not only (a) make sense, and (b) attempt to be >consistent with the rules as presented, but also (c) be interesting >enough so that it suggests campaign plot ideas & side issues (that is, >things which may become part of the storyline of the game, and thus be >of direct interest to the players). agreed. [a] is a personal issue, yet knowing what others are doing allows more options [b] is the canon debate we're having [c] screw the canon when necessary. Use Dune navigators if that's what you want. roymeo
Tue, 9 Jan 96 23:08:09+120 RE: Re: just a tad off-topic From: whisen@krems.kmr.ll.mit.edu (Tim Whisenhunt) To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > >I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction. > >one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition? >I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main >rules and am not sure. > >roymeo > Yes the rules companion is for 1st ed but a lot of the 1st edition stuff is still useful in second ed. Some of the info was already incorporated into the second edition rules so parts of it are pretty superfluous. Unlike a lot of second edition games that claim compatibility Star Wars does a nice job of fixing the few basic flaws inherent in the 1st edition, adding more complexity while keeping the ease of play that made it a great game to begin with, and making those of us who started from the beginning feel as if we had not wasted a lot of money buying the first edition(ie: it is not all outdated) Tim
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 08:35:02 -0700 RE: Revised SF ship combat From: Steve Bartell <STEVEBAR@wordperfect.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu After running the Sathar War from the Knighthawks boxed set, I noticed something that dramatically takes away from the realism of space combat in Star Frontiers. Now normally, I am the first one to say "leave the rules be and live with it", but maybe not this time. In KH, you move a number of hexes on your turn according to your ADF speed you are going. This forced a ship to be in front of a ship one turn, then all the sudden move instantly far away during their turn. The effect is having the ships bounce around the map. Sure, a ship can fire at any ship that moves through it's firing path, but it is hard to plan tactics ahead of time when you have no idea where the ship is going until it makes it's complete turn move. Solution: anyone who has played StarFleet Battles knows that they have their turns divided into "impulses", where each ship moves one hex at a time, according to it's speed. For instance, a ship that is moving very fast might move one hex almost every impulse, but slow ones might move one hex every 8 impulses. Has anyone ever incorporated this type of movement into your game? If so, how did it work? If not, I am considering writing something up on it and posting it to the list. Thanks, -Steve Bartell http://members.aol.com/stbartell/private/index.htm
Tue, 09 Jan 96 13:57:02 EST RE: Re: just a tad off-topic From: Brian M Lauer <UK02050@ukcc.uky.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu The Rules Compendium is for 1st Ed. SWRPG. I'm amazed that you were able to find a copy. Brian
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:18:06 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-08 23:07:28 EST, you write: >Well, I think that this presentation of KH canon might help shed a touch >more light. I'll say it again, personally it just seems one should >ignore the 1%c figure. (playing with astrogation time is a seperate >issue, and I would certainly support lowing the number from 10hours/LY, >but not allow calculation enroute). This is starting to get interesting...(G) I'll probably post a more lengthy post on this topic in reply to some of your other points later, but I wanted to mention this right now. I wouldn't allow calculation that WASN'T done enroute. With all the variations that might come up; slight course errors, a minor asteroid here or there, etc, I would say that calculations are an ongoing process. While the rough draft (as it were) can be done ahead of time, all the fine details depend on *what's actually happening*. Indeed in KH p 25 (Plot Interseller Jumps) we find that "The time needed to make course corrections increases for long jumps, because even small errors become very serious as the distance increases." As regards to day length...in Alpha Dawn, it mentions that the 20 hour day (Galactic Standard Time) is used primarily for record keeping. Pay, and travel time, are figured from the standard day; local systems will be used for other purposes. And of course, banking uses standard 20 hour days for determining interest, when loans are due, etc. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:21:05 -0600 RE: Re: just a tad off-topic From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 08:43 PM 1/8/96 -0600, you wrote: > >I finally got the StarWars stuff I bought via auction. > >one question: is the Rules Companion for first edition? >I have it and the Second edition rules, but not the first edition main >rules and am not sure. > >roymeo > > That is a good question. The 1st and 2nd Edition SW rules shouldn't be all that different. But then I don't know. I've always played 2nd edition rules. ThankU Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:42:24 -0600 RE: The Void From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay so we accelerate at 83km/sec to enter the void. What happens when we encounter a gravitational anomaly in the Void that throws are navigation computers off. And if so, is there gravitational anomalies in the Void. By gravitational anomaly I mean like SW, a planet or other such large item casts a shadow in hyperspace. Does this happen in SF. I think it does otherwise we would be able to zip right through the Greater Morass and other large interstellar dust clouds.
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:51:10 -0600 RE: KH Space Combat From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu What travels in a straight line tends to travel in a straigh line unless acted upon by an outside force. Using Newtonian physics, I should be able to accellerate my Assault Scout to a speed of 20 and without changing vector rotate my Assault Scout around to face what was previously the rear (thus flying backwards) and fire at the enemy pursuing me. Thankyou Darryl Fuller.
Tue, 09 Jan 96 17:14:06 EST RE: TS/SI From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> I knew the system for TS/SI, but had forgotten the 'two pool' system of damage. My first point, about assigning a damage modifier to the established 'to hit' roll was an attempt to simplify the system. If we use the system described, but then add a damage modifier based on the weapon to the rolled number, then with one roll we know IF the character hit, HOW HARD the character hit, and WHERE the character hit. I think I would have rather seen Zeb's guide go in this direction if they wnated to update the SF system because it is not only better but also almost 100% compatible with all of the current SF material. I don't have the TS/SI book & haven't seen it in about 3 years, but here is a guess at my 'damage bonus' numbers. Indy, convert some of the TS/SI guns to SF so we can add these rules if we want them... Laser Pistol +1 per 2 SEU Gyrojet Pistol +3 Sonic Disruptor +5/4/3/2 for PB/S/M/L ranges Auto Pistol +2, +3 if three rnd burst Needler Pistol +1 + drugs or +2 barbed Laser Rifle +1 per 2 SEU Gyrojet Rifle +3 Sonic Devestator +8/7/6/5 for PB/S/M/L ranges Auto Rifle +2, +3 if 3 rnd burst, +3 on 3 locations for burst fire Needler Rifle +1 + drugs, or +3 barbed Heavy Laser +1 per SEU Are these even close or realistic? Please comment... me, delmar watkins
Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:18:11 -0500 RE: Re: TS/SI From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-09 17:27:55 EST, you write: (Delmar Watkins) >If we use the system described, but then add a damage modifier based on >the weapon to the rolled number, then with one roll we know IF the >character hit, HOW HARD the character hit, and WHERE the character hit. > >I think I would have rather seen Zeb's guide go in this direction if they >wnated to update the SF system because it is not only better but also >almost 100% compatible with all of the current SF material. > >I don't have the TS/SI book & haven't seen it in about 3 years, but >here is a guess at my 'damage bonus' numbers. Indy, convert some of the >TS/SI guns to SF so we can add these rules if we want them... > > Okay, once more, weapons have a separate damage roll. The combined roll to hit/damage is only for unarmed combat. The numbers listed aren't useable because this wasn't taken into account. Sample damages: (From TS/SI) .22 Baretta 1d6 .32 Baretta 1d6 9mm Browning HP 1d6+1 .45 Colt M-1911-A1 1d8 .30 M-1 Carbine 1d8 .30-06 M-1 Garand 1d6+1 7.62mm M60 machine gun 1d8 .50 Browning M2 machine gun 1d10 Note that in TS/SI, scores range from 20-79. CON is divided by 10 to give the amount of damage each hit location can take...so most areas will have 4-5 points of damage it can take. Maxing out wound damage to the head, chest, or abdomen kills the character. Using this system, most of the time you're back to the old roll to hit, then roll for damage routine instead of the ZG one roll method. On the other hand, it also provides for hit locations *without* an additional roll required. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 18:25:53 CST RE: Re: The Void <199601092142.PAA17614@n-link.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu darryl had a good point with the note about the clouds being navigation hazards. I never really processed that. Of course other systems do seem to 'attract' ships, because when you misjump, you do end up in another system. Though this may have just been a playability issue (though how getting trapped in a system with no civilization will help when you have no fuel is beyond me). There is a difference between the Star Wars hyperdrive. Generally in Star Wars, they are going great distances and are not limited to 15LY for safety. roy
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:59:58 +1100 RE: Re: entering the void From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu "Please Sir, I want some more..." Roymeo (Yes, that's >Roymeo<, not that other imposter - sorry!) says : > well, as someone noted, 1g accelleration gets you from earth to about > the orbit of Jupiter. Sure, everything is documented, but old documents > will do you little good. Planets revolving about suns, suns moving > relative to each other, other gravity wells to avoid/which influence, > etc. > > Would do no good to skip on calculations and end up out by 'jupiter' > when the 'earth' you're trying to get to is on the opposite side of the > sun. True. But most of those calculations ought to be automatic as well. We can do almost all of those things here and now. That's how we know when... * When lunar apogee & perigee occur; * When Earth's (and most other planets') aphelion and perihelion are; * When Major conjunctions, minor conjunctions, "times of closest passage", etc. are; * When the tides (incorporating both the solar and lunar aspects) are; * When (and where) solar & lunar eclipses are; * When Halley's comet will come back; etc. etc. Mathematical models of the positions of planets, asteroids, comets, and moons have already been worked out for our solar system. That's why the two Voyagers did so well. Combine this with "proper motion" calculations of the stars relative to some fixed point (again, we do this now), and voila! An instant 4-dimensional map (x,y,z,t) map of the galaxy. I could write a simple navicomp program for the Frontier in a few hours. Of course, my navicomp would be a Mac (and only a Classic II at that), but hey! My Subaru 4-cylinder starfreighter's been in dry dock for 18 months. Roymeo also wrote : > >do you use the table presented, or do you use the real equation? > > depends upon how many anal physics majors you have in your campaign. > I'd use the chart unless it is wildly inaccurate/unplayable/causes > further problems down the line/causes too much suspension of disbelief. Hmmm... Point taken, but I was more concerned with the writing of the star system generator program than doing calculations by hand during a game. I wouldn't do a full solar system by hand using the Traveller 2300 rules anyway - it'd take hours. - Wes
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:36:56 CST RE: damage systems <960109191745_111418557@emout06.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu anyone ever use the "It's a hit, but where?" article from a dragon? Sure, it requires a seperate roll (only for very good hits, the rest are still treated as whole body damage). just wondering how well it's worked for others, and any modifications anyone has used on it. as it is, it is KIND OF nice to have some good hits creating specific wounds to specific areas, but of course you can still have most hits doing just generic damage. I suppose for the playability, it is less realistic but a little simpler to have most/all damage being generic. having only some hits doing specific damage keeps the game moving along in a more space operaeque way yet adds the potential for specific crippling hits. I know from past experience with Rolemaster, that if you start getting too frequent spcific damage, you soon have a party which needs to stop because a quarter of the party's limbs are missing or inoperative. roymeo aka rev. roy crisman (for those with some confusion)
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:05:12 +1100 RE: Re: damage systems From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu "Bonjour" from the land of the nonexistant summer! Roymeo writes : > anyone ever use the "It's a hit, but where?" article from a dragon? Sorry! Haven't seen a Dragon in 3 years. > just wondering how well it's worked for others, and any modifications > anyone has used on it. A friend of mine used a fighter hit sheet from FASA's Renegade Legion - Interceptor in a game of AD&D. Each of the ship circuits was considered to represent a specific piece of the body or bodily function. The ship's armour became the character's, with pieces of armour falling off at appropriate times. Different weapons were given different "hit shapes", just as different weapons in Interceptor do. Apparently they enjoyed it so much they forgot the plot of the story, and ran off to get slaughtered by a pack of kobolds. > As it is, it is KIND OF nice to have some good hits creating specific > wounds to specific areas, but of course you can still have most hits > doing just generic damage. > > I suppose for the playability, it is less realistic but a little simpler > to have most/all damage being generic. having only some hits doing > specific damage keeps the game moving along in a more space operaeque > way yet adds the potential for specific crippling hits. I know from > past experience with Rolemaster, that if you start getting too frequent > specific damage, you soon have a party which needs to stop because a > quarter of the party's limbs are missing or inoperative. I always wanted to use such a system in AD&D, but more for the role-playing possibilities. For example, a wizard who happily and regularly casts Fireball has three fingers of his left hand chopped off (or casts Dexter's Digits of Death by accident). Uh-oh! Can't cast that Fireball anymore, because those three fingers were crucial to the somantic component. Thus, the character goes off and researches a new version of the spell, in which he need only use his right hand, or no hands at all. Later, he discovers how useful it was to do so - when he's tied to a stake in the middle of a goblin lair about to be made into a sashlik, and he can't move his hands. Of course, after he's killed all the goblins, he still can't get free of the ropes... Because I assumed most long-term disabilities could be cured in some fashion or another (by surgery, cybernetics, or whatever), I couldn't forsee too many (sub)plot ideas arising because a character had lost his trigger finger on his shooting hand. Consequently, I hadn't given it much thought in respect to the various SciFi games I play. Of course, having sexy scars to show off in the spacers' tavern between adventures could lead to a few things... > roymeo aka rev. roy crisman (for those with some confusion) I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I'm sorry! Boy am I sorry! I'm sorry! :-) - Wes
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 21:16:02 CST RE: losing bits <9601100305.AA03545@durin> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu wes said: >Because I assumed most long-term disabilities could be cured in some >fashion or another (by surgery, cybernetics, or whatever), I couldn't >forsee too many (sub)plot ideas arising because a character had lost his >trigger finger on his shooting hand. Consequently, I hadn't given it >much thought in respect to the various SciFi games I play. Of course, >having sexy scars to show off in the spacers' tavern between adventures >could lead to a few things... Well, sure on the LONG TERM you can get things regenerated (dragon article) or replaced (though by canon, most cyber is looked down upon, i believe), but that doesn't help when you are trapped on Volturnus. Those broken arms, legs, and pseudopods quickly become a major obstacle to be overcome. Even if you are in the middle of Port Loren, you have to take time out to get these quick-fixed: regeneration takes weeks/months and I don't believe broken bones mend instantaneously (could be wrong, could be bone-knitters which work in a couple hours in the major hospitals). roymeo
Tue, 09 Jan 1996 21:04:44 CST RE: Re: entering the void <9601100059.AA03540@durin> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu wes said: >Roymeo (Yes, that's >Roymeo<, not that other imposter - sorry!) says : >> well, as someone noted, 1g accelleration gets you from earth to about >> the orbit of Jupiter. Sure, everything is documented, but old documents >> will do you little good. Planets revolving about suns, suns moving >> relative to each other, other gravity wells to avoid/which influence, >> etc. >> >> Would do no good to skip on calculations and end up out by 'jupiter' >> when the 'earth' you're trying to get to is on the opposite side of >> the sun. >True. But most of those calculations ought to be automatic as well. We >can do almost all of those things here and now. That's how we know >when... > * When lunar apogee & perigee occur; > * When Earth's (and most other planets') aphelion and perihelion are; > * When Major conjunctions, minor conjunctions, "times of closest > passage", etc. are; > * When the tides (incorporating both the solar and lunar aspects) are; > * When (and where) solar & lunar eclipses are; > * When Halley's comet will come back; > etc. etc. >Mathematical models of the positions of planets, asteroids, comets, and >moons have already been worked out for our solar system. That's why the >two Voyagers did so well. Of course all of this has been from within the system. Seeing these changes in a 'nearby' system would be harder. So these accurate measurements would have to be distributed about the Frontier. (not too hard) Star Frontiers dramatically underestimates the power of computers. That we know. These calculations could of course be considered more complex because of the closeness of all the systems (being in a more densely star populated area of space). >Combine this with "proper motion" calculations of the stars relative to >some fixed point (again, we do this now), and voila! An instant >4-dimensional map (x,y,z,t) map of the galaxy. Well, we can do this now, but we also have no void capability and as GM's are given little to work with as far as explanation as to what the difficulties are. I know I considered the existance of binary black holes one light year to become such a major problem to navigation to and from the Vrusk home that the system was abandonded (also has to do with screwy Vrusk sense of aesthetics). I've also just recently destroyed the moon of a planet in another system...this should almost certainly mess up the navigation to and from this system, if not neighboring systems. Now, surely level 6 (or 8) computers should be able to do these sorts of calculations. I doubt each ship would necessarily be equipped with one of these, but I agree, most worlds/space stations should be able to do this. As I noted, it would only make sense for Trans-Travel the megacorp to have astrogators on staff to be working to speed up the turn around. But I don't feel comfortable reducing the role of Astrogator as a backup in case all the on-board computers fail. Making things too easy to planet-hop would reduce a lot of the adventure/risk of space travel. If these models are too easy to construct, there would be no reason that jumping to a new system would be too risky. Soon the Frontier would become more appropriately the Metropolis. Instead of the long hard journey to the next stop on the dusty trail of the american west frontier model, you just jump in the car and drive a couple blocks to the Gas n Sip. Next we'll have a ban on assault weapons. :) For me, it is how to balance the short-sightedness of the original rules with fixes which maintain the look-and-feel of the original. In the Alpha Dawn rules we are to believe that the mega-corps are shiny happy benevolent employers. Alpha Dawn was published before the impact of cyberpunk. I remember how betrayed I felt when I played in college with a GM who had incorporated the cyberpunk feel of the megacorps to the game. PGC isn't our friend??? *SOB* But even with this major paradigm shift, the GM was able to keep much of the same feel to the game. You just added corps to the list of things to keep your eyes on. We could still be good and noble and true outside of the utopian Frontier paradigm. i'm rambling, but am I making any sense? roymeo
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:40:34 +1100 RE: Dralasites with arms in slings From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Roymeo says : > Well, sure on the LONG TERM you can get things regenerated (dragon > article) or replaced (though by canon, most cyber is looked down upon, i > believe), but that doesn't help when you are trapped on Volturnus. > Those broken arms, legs, and pseudopods quickly become a major obstacle > to be overcome. "I must have taken a bad step. Don't worry about me, Master. You go on without me. I'm done for." > Even if you are in the middle of Port Loren, you have > to take time out to get these quick-fixed: regeneration takes > weeks/months and I don't believe broken bones mend instantaneously. Hmmm... How would you (as game master) play the "City Disability Situation"? A player has taken a hit to the stomach, and is taken to hospital for surgery. That character is forced to sit in a hospital bed for, say, two weeks of game time (he has an extremely high constitution :-). How would you incorporate the character (or more particularly, the player) into the ongoing campaign? Give the player a new PC or an NPC for those two weeks? Have The Bad Guy come in and gloat while the character is lying there helpless? Allow the player a public access comp console to dredge up info while the other characters are doing the more active stuff? Or not allow the PC go to hospital (by some means or other) until the scenario is over? - Wes
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:36:44 +1100 RE: Re: entering the void From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Roymeo eloquently says : > Star Frontiers dramatically underestimates the power of computers. And there lieth the real problem. Give the man a prize! > Well, we can do this now, but we also have no void capability and as > GM's are given little to work with as far as explanation as to what the > difficulties are. I know I considered the existance of binary black > holes one light year to become such a major problem to navigation to and > from the Vrusk home that the system was abandonded (also has to do with > screwy Vrusk sense of aesthetics). I've also just recently destroyed > the moon of a planet in another system...this should almost certainly > mess up the navigation to and from this system, if not neighboring > systems. The destruction of a moon, per se, should make little difference to things inside the system, let alone outside it (an Earth-sized planet makes only a small dent in the gravitational field of the solar system, unless you get very close). A black hole is a much more impressive thing to fly by (besides which, you have to fly around them at a distance so that the x-ray emissions don't fry your computer core). However, the wild patch of debris left behind is another question completely. As I described in an earlier post, a ship jumping from Earth to Planet X need only power away from Earth for a few million km before it has built enough speed for a void-jump - not quite far enough to reach Jupiter. But, if the direction of travel is in the plane of the ecliptic, it is plenty far enough to run into a whole bunch of pesky asteroids. It could be argued that there are far too many asteroids in the main astroid belt to keep track of and/or they orbit in effectively random orbits within the belt, thus a navicomp would blow out before holding all of the necessary information (either that or the navicomp spends a week doing calculations only to tell you that there are >no< safe courses in your requested trajectory >this< year...). Thus, going by the 3.5 days method, a ship going to Planet X (at right angles to the plane of the ecliptic) takes 7 or 8 days to get there - regardless of distance. To go to Planet Y (in the plane of the ecliptic), it takes a large detour out of the plane before a jump is possible - ooh, say 14 days. If there's an asteroid belt in both the departure and destination systems, it may take several weeks! > Now, surely level 6 (or 8) computers should be able to do these sorts of > calculations. The calculation of orbits should need a level 2 or 3 computer. The sticky part is the volume of data - of all the bodies in our solar system, which ones would you consider important enough to include? A cheap (level 2) version of the navicomp would have a single destination planet - Earth. All other bodies in the solar system are included only "to avoid". Thus, Jupiter's moons need not be individually included - the program would treat Jupiter as a point mass, but with an "avoidance radius" larger than the orbit of the outermost moon. Thus, asteroids & comets aside, the cheap navicomp would only contain 11 objects - 10 to avoid (8 planets, a moon & a sun), and one target object. Hey, this even sounds like a level 1 computer! > But I don't feel comfortable reducing the role of Astrogator as > a backup in case all the on-board computers fail. True enough... although in many games the Engineer is just a guy who sits in a box until a machine breaks down. > Making things too easy to planet-hop would reduce a lot of the adventure/ > risk of space travel. If these models are too easy to construct, there > would be no reason that jumping to a new system would be too risky. There may be a great many things which an astrogater still needs to do. He's the only one who knows what all the numbers the navicomp is spitting out. The navicomp may also offer a selection of possible trajectories, from which the astrogator may choose the one best suiting the ship (the navicomp need not take particular ship or cargo characteristics into account when offering a valid trajectory). Interfacing with "traffic control" to make sure another ship isn't using the same trajectory but coming the other way is another must. > Soon the Frontier would become more appropriately the Metropolis. > Instead of the long hard journey to the next stop on the dusty trail > of the american west frontier model, you just jump in the car and drive > a couple blocks to the Gas n Sip. BUT DO YOU KNOW HOW DANGEROUS IT IS TO GO TO THE GAS 'N' SIP?!?!? > Next we'll have a ban on assault weapons. :) Too late. My campaign has already banned all weapons larger than a 0.35 lazpistol, unless it is a properly licenced "item of cultural significance". > For me, it is how to balance the short-sightedness of the original rules > with fixes which maintain the look-and-feel of the original. In the > Alpha Dawn rules we are to believe that the mega-corps are shiny happy > benevolent employers. Alpha Dawn was published before the impact of > cyberpunk. I remember how betrayed I felt when I played in college with > a GM who had incorporated the cyberpunk feel of the megacorps to the > game. PGC isn't our friend??? Most certainly - you're an employee, aren't you? Aren't you? > i'm rambling, but am I making any sense? Absolutely - I certainly understand your point of view. In fact, I support it wholeheartedly. Actually, I've often used the Wild West image to describe Star Frontiers to other role players. And you're completely correct in the Zebulon's Guide descriptions of the Megacorps does do a bit of a side shift to a darker cyber-attitude. But to continue the Wild West analogy, I view a void-jump much in the way a cowboy travels between towns. Between some of the larger towns, there are clearly marked roads (or at least trails). No problems, no fuss. Between most (smaller) towns, there are no roads, but if you ask at the saloon, you can generally get half-decent directions to the next town. You know - "Follow the sunset for three days, heh, heh. When you see the hill with the two giant cacti, turn south for a day, heh, <snort>. Follow the gully for two days, <cough> <snort> and you're at Gloom Gulch <big spit of chewing tobacco>". The cowboy rarely gets lost - the real problems are the bandits, the Sheriff, the rattlesnakes, and dying of thirst. In SF, I don't think the act of making a jump is too difficult - the real dangers are who you're running from and who you run into at the other end. True navigational hazards are either readily recognised and avoided (the big canyon which must be skirted), or are of a nature which cannot be predicted (the rattlesnake which spooks the horse). The former should be routine for the astrogator, the latter a problem for all crew members to solve together. The snag is, the MegaCorps themselves reinforce the idea that, at least between the major centres of population, the routes between planets >are< well-beaten paths (the MegaCorps couldn't become MegaCorps otherwise, and worlds certainly couldn't specialise in a particular area of Frontier commerce). An astrogator probably isn't needed between the main worlds. That, however, doesn't mean that the universe is completely civilised. Indeed, the bubbles of true cultured civility may be quite small. Beyond the cities or larger space stations, you'd better be rough and ready, 'cos everyone else is. If you like, my particular vision is a bit closer to the Han Solo/Tatooine image in Star Wars (the movie, not the RPG), where a hyperspace jump is routine, but a guy wears his blaster slung low, and can blow a bad guy away in a public place without so much as a by-your-leave (and a coin for the bartender). By giving people some lattitude in how fast they fly their ships, you also give them some lattitude in how big a "cowboy" they can be... "Quick, Jenxkins! Plot us a course for Kzit-Kar!" "I can have you there in 12 days." "12 days? We don't have 12 days. If we don't get this data chip to our contact within 8 days, the entire fabric of Frontier society will be rent asunder!" "8 days? I can't do that unless the ship travels at 1.7g ... and the ship is only rated at 1.3!" "Dammit! I'm the Captain, and I say we have to try. Plot your course and get us out of here! The Frontier needs us..." Travelling at accelerations greater than that rated for the ship is of course hazardous to equipment and personnel. But coming in hot "just in the nick of time" is much more fun. The ability to take extra risks to squeeze a little extra speed out of your ship in times of extreme need is an important aspect of adventure-scifi, and one which is precluded by the adherence to 1ly = 1day method of void jumping. Talk about rambling. Am >I< making sense? - Wes
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:33:54 -0700 RE: test From: sbartell@novell.com (Steve Bartell) To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 09:47:45 -0800 RE: Re: Revised SF ship combat From: Mark Damon Hughes <kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Steve Bartell <STEVEBAR@wordperfect.com> spake: >Solution: anyone who has played StarFleet Battles knows that they have >their turns divided into "impulses", where each ship moves one hex at a >time, according to it's speed. For instance, a ship that is moving very >fast might move one hex almost every impulse, but slow ones might >move one hex every 8 impulses. > >Has anyone ever incorporated this type of movement into your game? If >so, how did it work? If not, I am considering writing something up on it >and posting it to the list. Yup. Check out my Knight Hawks house rules on my Star Frontiers page: "http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/frontiers.html". Fairly well play-tested, though they do tend to make faster ships more effective than in the original, and there's little incentive to slow down (so most battles end up sliding all over the map as everyone tries to match velocities). I also fixed the 1 ADF=2.8G and the short range problem, though turns are still 10 minutes long, which is silly with modern systems, but since I treat Frontiers as a '50s-era SF game it's appropriate for the genre. YMMV. -Mark Damon Hughes
Wed, 10 Jan 96 14:07:52 EST RE: From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> Wild West and Computers, what a mix! I think that even though computers were so extremely underpowered in SF, I think that the ability to jump compensates for the computers' power. In other words, I think that something so complex and strange as a jump through what would normally be 'real' space would take A LOT, and I mean A LOT of calculations. So you have a frackin' Cray 1,000,000 Supercomputer....what if a jump still takes that computer 10 hours/LY to compile code, do the calculations, recalculate, compensate for ships and mass distribution, planets, gravity fields, traffic, etc.? Well, then we can assume that the jumps are complex and that it takes a computer a long time to do the calculations. Ok, so now you are the astrogator. Because you knwo how to play DOOM, you can now pilot a ship through a jump becuase you have a COMPUTER! WRONG!!! Heck, I consider myself handy with a computer and I can double click with the rest of 'em, but I am nowhere NEAR the ability of a programmer or operator able to handle a sophisticated Cray Supercomputer. I also do not have the extreme mathematical and scientific background, nor the patience, to enter in ALL of the factors in the jump. All in all, we simply have to assume that a) the jump is complex even to a SuperDuperMega-you've-never-even-imagined-a-computer- this-powerful model ship astrogation computer, b) there are a lot of factors to be put into the equation, and c) a programmer must spend the time to not only put in the information, but also to have the computer spit out an answer. But guess what? Stuck without a computer? On a barren planet with no fuel (there's where ion drives are handy)? Ready to give up? Well, instead of relying on computers, use the most powerful machine of all.... THE HUMAN BRAIN!!! (brew-ha-ha). More than 2,000,000 years in the engineering and testing of this machine, it can -ehem- guess stuff with pretty good accuracy. In other words, if the rules allow for a small jump without a computer, then being stranded is bad but not as deadly. BTW: What if you jump a distance that does not have a gravity well within it? What if you jump 3 LY and there's nothin' in that radius? Abou the Wild West: I started thinking what type of game SF is when I ran it recently, and I came to the conclusion that it was a lot like the Wild West except with high tech. Anyone could go out to the west and get a job becasue labor was needed. Commodities were expensive not because resources were rare, but because of transport. THere was an 'alien' fighting against the 'AMericans' when they pushed west: the Native AMericans (Hey, maybe the Sathar aren't bad guys...), And there was an omnipresent and 'benevolent' force called the U.S> Government that helped settlers out, gave them land (and grants), and were generally beneficial but still corrupt. SF is, in my opinion, almost a direct play on that paradigm. Technology has made everyone at least decently wealthy, the worlds are relatively free of environmental, pollution, and poverty problems; everyone is getting rich, just like in the old west, except now the frontier races have the technology to keep everything 'green' and peaceful. That is not to say that there are nmot problems; far from it. Rather, the problems are more along the lines of what we would call crimes or plots: Powerful guys stealing stuff,killing people, or just being bad, naughty people. Problems of today: senseless crime, pollution, overpopulation, lack of resources, poverty, (to some extent in the frontier) discrimination, and governemtnal debt, etc. are not as bad in the frontier, if present at all. SF is a 'romantic' game where characters explore, solve crimes and plots, end tyranny, and just do good stuff. INstead of cyberpunk that worries about stuff in the news today, SF deals with a more black v. white universe that is fun to adventure within. FDor the above reason, I am loathe to add cybernetics, etc. into SF. Sure, it makes SENSE for this stuff to be in there, but like Star Wars (where prosthetics and Lobot are the highest forms of cybernetics), SF feels better when one is wheeling through the galaxy making sure colonies form, the farm is protected, the pirates don't succeed, and that evil sheriff is put behind bars. While this may sound simplistic, I think there is PLENTY of fertile territory for adventure and RPG fun in this genre. me, delmar watkins
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:13:27 -0800 (PST) RE: re: Wild West and computers From: "Frank W. Patnaude, Jr., x2857" <fpatna1@umbc.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > I think that even though computers were so extremely underpowered in > SF, I think that the ability to jump compensates for the computers' > power. In other words, I think that something so complex and strange > as a jump through what would normally be 'real' space would take > A LOT, and I mean A LOT of calculations. So you have a frackin' > Cray 1,000,000 Supercomputer....what if a jump still takes that > computer 10 hours/LY to compile code, do the calculations, recalculate, > compensate for ships and mass distribution, planets, gravity fields, > traffic, etc.? Well, then we can assume that the jumps are complex and > that it takes a computer a long time to do the calculations. > > Heck, I consider myself handy with a computer and I can double click > with the rest of 'em, but I am nowhere NEAR the ability of a > programmer or operator able to handle a sophisticated Cray Supercomputer. > I also do not have the extreme mathematical and scientific > background, nor the patience, to enter in ALL of the factors in the > jump. I agree to a certain extent. Maybe the computers aren't all that underpowered, but it just takes a certain amount of skill to use the computers properly. Dune is another universe in which jumps require more than just a bunch of calculations. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. | "Those who do not learn from Applications Programmer | History are destined to repeat it. Univ. of MD Balt. County | And the same goes for Science and fpatna1@umbc.edu | Math." - Woody Boyd, Cheers
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:01:49 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: JohnAslan@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu To roymeo: I think you're making sense! On Jan 9th roymeo wrote: >For me, it is how to balance the short-sightedness of the original rules >with fixes which maintain the look-and-feel of the original. On Jan 10th Wes wrote: >Absolutely - I certainly understand your point of view. In fact, I support >it wholeheartedly. Hurrah! Someone out there seems to understand how I feel about this game. I love the Star Frontiers game, its "...early days of interstellar exploration undertaken by only a hardy few..." concept. Remember, at least before the ZG came along, that the frontier is exactly that, like the early American west or Austrailia's Botany Bay colony. It seems all anybody wants to do these days is change the system to make it into Traveller or Star Trek or something else. But something else isn't the game I love, Star Frontiers is. Yes, its got flaws, even major problems, but name a game system that doesn't. Why did some of you, who seem so intent on changing the game, become involved with Star Frontiers in the first place? It seems that if you dislike the game so much your time would be better invested in a game that wasn't so screwed up from your point of view. I applaude roymeo and Wes for having the conviction to stand by the game, it needs fixin' there can be no doubt, but honoring the original vision is the only way to better the game. Otherwise its becomes something else.
Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:41:15 -0500 (EST) RE: Re: entering the void From: "Frank W. Patnaude Jr." <fpatna1@gl.umbc.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > Hurrah! Someone out there seems to understand how I feel about this game. I > love the Star Frontiers game, its "...early days of interstellar exploration > undertaken by only a hardy few..." concept. > > I applaude roymeo and Wes for having the conviction to stand by the game, it > needs fixin' there can be no doubt, but honoring the original vision is the > only way to better the game. Otherwise its becomes something else. Here, here. Frank fpatna1@umbc.edu
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Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:28:27 -0500 RE: Re: entering the void From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-10 17:03:26 EST, you write: >Why did some of you, who seem so intent on changing the game, become involved >with Star Frontiers in the first place? It seems that if you dislike the >game so much your time would be better invested in a game that wasn't so >screwed up from your point of view. Gosh, I don't get the sense that anyone hates the game on this list. I have thoroughly enjoyed watching everyone puzzle out and fret over a system that was so long ago abandoned by its creators. Look at all the D&D'rs who hate the system but love the game. As for SF, I find the system quirky but when I played it --in the before time-- it was easy and fun and it worked for us. Can't ask for more than that. getting into the minutiae is part of the enjoyment. >I applaude roymeo and Wes for having the conviction to stand by the game, it >needs fixin' there can be no doubt, but honoring the original vision is the >only way to better the game. Otherwise its becomes something else. And we don't need anything else. SF is fine by me. I don't really see a need for another Cyber-punk game. Back to the old days! TimC27
Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:01:29 -0500 RE: Banks and finance From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Here are some of the rules I've been promising you guys...to start with, something very interesting...interest! (G) FYI, these numbers are all based on the banking system as presented in KH and geared so that they can make money on loans as detailed there. Bank Accounts type minimum % interest term (cr) per 40 days savings 50,000 1 none savings 100,000 2 none CD 10,000 1 120 days CD 50,000 2 120 days CD 100,000 2.25 120 days CD 10,000 1.5 200 days CD 50,000 2.25 200 days CD 100,000 2.5 200 days Investments result type Col mod 01-02 Max Fail 98-00 Cobalt White Blue chip +2 +10% +8% none -5% Low Risk +1 +15% +12% -1% -10% Mod Risk +0 +25% +16% -2% -15% High Risk +0 +30% +24% -3% -20% Gamble +0 +75% +36% -5% -50% Check every 40 days; use Finance Skill (or column 0 if unskilled). Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:25:52 -0600 RE: The Void From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu So, we are all agreed that there are gravity well shadows in the Void that can affect navigation. What happens if we come across a mass that wasn't there, for instance a rogue planet in deep space (frozen like an icecube) that affects the navigation routine and throws us off course. Should we be able to pop out of hyperspace and recalculate our figures from that point? Or, should we arrive at our destination a little off (maybe a couple of light years) and figure out where we are and recalculate from there (which might include other uknown gravity wells that can throw our calculations off)? Help me, I keep trying to get to X but there are too many damn uknown gravity wells! Thankyou Darryl Fuller. Indy, what does your hat look like?
Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:31:59 -0600 RE: Starship Drive Construction Rules From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Okay, I've just made it possible to make ships larger than hull size 20 (Though only ships HS20 and below may land on planets). Should I make bigger engines for that ship of HS 100 (A D type fusion engine) or should I leave it the same (A C type atomic engine). I add an engine every 5 HSs above 20. Thankyou Darryl Fuller. Never go adventuring without a bag of chips. (or Soda)
Fri, 12 Jan 1996 03:25:47 CST RE: Re: Banks and finance <960111190041_88106028@mail04.mail.aol.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Heh. Interest. I don't mean to spoil anyone's fun, but I think one of the statements that the guy who ran my first college campaign had about the best way to deal with this issue. He was from a pretty relaxed group who played Star Frontiers in the High Space Opera fashion. The GM would decide whether you could have some piece of technology based upon whether it was 'cool' or not primarily. [One character was allowed a robot who's entire job was just to follow the character around and play theme music for him. Darth Vader's Theme when he entered a room (in which case he would always take one step into a room, put his hands on his hips, and scan the room from left to right as his music played before doing anything else).] If a player was maybe looking at getting something that was kinda iffy, the major stipulation from the GM was 'you can't use it for combat' or 'if you are trying to weasel me, it will be gone'. Anyway, this group's way of dealing with interest (and thus it became our group's way when the GM started) was: "I won't tax you all the various ways I could, and you don't ask for interest." and it works pretty damn well... Frankly, I'm about the only one I know of in any of my games of any sort who is the type to be interested in interest, etc. Guess it comes from playing that Alchemist character way back when. I couldn't see most of my player's even wanting to be involved with something like that. While I myself may even adopt Indy's finance rules I wonder if I should. spirit of the game I don't mean to pick on you Indy. It was just a coincidence that THIS was the issue that my friend really made an impact on. I'm sure I myself have done some strange nitpicky things that Dan would have some great comebacks for. "Language chart? Ok, I'm a deaf-mute. I don't care about languages." roymeo
Fri, 12 Jan 1996 04:24:33 CST RE: Really big fargin ships <199601120231.UAA04125@n-link.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Darryl said: >Okay, I've just made it possible to make ships larger than hull size 20 >(Though only ships HS20 and below may land on planets). Should I make >bigger engines for that ship of HS 100 (A D type fusion engine) or >should I leave it the same (A C type atomic engine). I add an engine >every 5 HSs above 20. gah! How many Death Stars are they going to make??? The Juggernaut ship the sathar made (Day of the Juggernaut, Dragon 91) was 480 Hull points (480/5 = Hull Size 96 (possibly less, as ADF and MR can be sacrificed for Hull points)) thus about that huge size. This is a prototype ship, and only one is built because of it's enormous cost. This sort of ship would make excellent targets for kamekaze attacks...sure, we may lose our 20 member crew, but we'll disable a ship of how many thousand people? The juggernaut's weapons and defenses are as follows: Weapons: DC, LB x8, PB x2, EB x4, T(space-to-ground missiles) x16, RB x20 Defenses: RH, ES, PS, SS, ICM x24 and it carries 20 hull size 2 ships I would assume this sort of ship would need a gaggle of normal engines all over it. If you tried to hook some 'super-atomic-engine' up to it, you would have incredible stress problems. I'm also not sure that an engine design can necessarily just be made larger and have it work as effectively thrust wise (ignoring the stress ripping the engine apart). Generally, I think these sort of ships are so large as to be silly. A HS20 Battleship has 400 crew members. "The biggest disadvantage of the battleship is its extreme cost; only three have been commissioned at the current time." A HS100 ship would by simple math have 2000 crew members. Since generally larger and larger groups of people would need more support personel, I would say that it would end up being closer to 3000 (you need at least 5 florists). And a ship this large would be able to carry fewer weapons than a bunch of smaller ships (surface area of this block of ice vs surface area of that block after shattering it). As well, the Knight Hawks book says that ships of HS5 or smaller ONLY may land on a planet. A battleship would be like dropping the enterprise on a planet with chemical engines (IE: a big friggen mess). Even if you allowed it via physics and streamlining a ship, imagine the ecological damage chemical or atomic engines would do. I know you're not going to be landing either of those on any of MY civilized worlds, especially the heavy population high-industry ones which are already dealing with chemical pollution and heat pollution problems. roymeo
Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:06:10 -0500 RE: Re: Banks and finance From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In a message dated 96-01-12 07:27:31 EST, you write: (Roymeo) >Frankly, I'm about the only one I know of in any of my games of any sort >who is the type to be interested in interest, etc. Guess it comes from >playing that Alchemist character way back when. I couldn't see most of >my player's even wanting to be involved with something like that. While >I myself may even adopt Indy's finance rules I wonder if I should. >spirit of the game > Well, even if they're in the game (finance rules) the players don't have to involve themselves with them. Nobody *has* to make investments, after all. But when banks are out loaning money to characters, they have to get that money from somewhere; and why do people put money in banks? Fantasy type games won't have interest, it's out of character for the time period. But a science fiction game seems a bit bare without some mention of it. Of course, SF, with it's "half of all your income goes to living expenses and taxes" approach *is* a bit bare in that respect...though at least that is taken into account. Besides, how else do you account for obscenely wealthy NPCs who don't *do* anything but have money? Anyway, I'm glad you think they're worth using in your game *if* you decide that the concept is right for your game. Regarding the stocks, as I'm sure all of you running Zebulon's Guide knows that the max (cobalt) interest is multiplied by the color code (thus, you get either full, 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 of that number), it occurred to me that some people here may be using straight Alpha Dawn rules. In that case, use 1/2 Logic as the base chance; each column shift is worth +5 to the base chance; and you could have a Finance skill as a one time skill that added +30 to their base chance. If they roll under 1/4 of their base chance, give full max interest; under 1/2, multiply interest by 0.75, under 3/4, multiply by 0.5, above 3/4 but still under the base chance, mutiply by 0.25. Fail results, 01-02 or 98-00 results would be as shown in the chart. Also, there should be a minimum initial amount allowed in an investment; this could be 500-1000 cr depending on the referee's wishes. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 13 Jan 1996 12:07:45 -0500 RE: New progits From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu This, obviously, will only be of use to those of you using Zebulon's Guide equipment. Progits CAC Boost A When used with Computer Access or Comp-Link, allows the use of two CAC program boosters; the progit supports hot swapping. Can use multiple progits of this type, but can still only use two of the same program booster. Will also hold Robotic program boosters. Info-Stor A This progit can be used in one of two ways. When used with Comp-Talk and Audio-Act (or Comp-Speak-Hear, or Brain-Link), or with an optional voice grid (50 cr) plugged in, it can function as a file computer. The progit has a location indicator, and a bank of buttons; Diz-viz can be used to display location info instead. While it is programmed for one language, a polyvox or Transcomp progit can be used to translate if neccessary. Or, it can be used to store information for progits such as Map-Calc and Fast-Scan. Storage can be split among the functions. Note that the progit is less obvious than a file computer, can be used for hands free operation, and if the wearer has a body comp anyhow, weighs less. Scanner-Interface I A With this progit, the user can hook his bodycomp to any scanner except shape scanners. The info can be monitored through Comp-Talk, Brain-Link, Dis-Viz, or a readout screen (same as for Map-Calc) attached to a jack in the progit. A Master-Comp progit can also monitor the scanner. Note, however, that a visual scanner can only be monitored by Dis-Viz or a readout screen. Can also be used with a toxy-rad gauge. Range (to scanner) is ten meters. Transcomp Booster A Must be used with Transcomp I, Transcomp II, or both. Enables the other progits to use additional languages; up to 10 more, which may be specified on purchase or entered later by polyvox. Comp-Speak-Hear B This progit combines the functions of Audio-Act and Comp-Talk. Map-Use B This progit combines the functions of Map-Calc and Dis-Viz. Scanner-Interface II B As Scanner-Interface I, save that up to four scanners can be hooked up to the progit. Range (to scanner) is ten meters. Computer Access C Must be used with Audio Act and Comp Talk (or Brain Link). Replaces the use of a Computer Access Computer (CAC); also used with another progit, CAC Boost. A Robotic version works the same way. Exercise-Mon C Must be used with Body-Scan and Comp-Talk or Brain-Link. This progit monitors a characters bodily functions and provides feedback to allow more efficient functioning. When used in training, it allows a character to learn Pumping Federanium and Running as if they were in his profession. Endurance of the character using this progit is increased by 10%. Also, when training to increase physical stats (str, sta, dex, and rs), it increases the improvement seen. If using Brain-Link, then 2 xp gives 3 points of improvement; otherwise, 3 xp gives 4 points. When used with Brain-Link, biofeedback reduces the accuracy of a Truth-Tell progit on the character to 30%. Med-Inject II C As with Med-Inject, but can control up to ten injection units. Med-Scan C Must be used with Helm-Link. This progit combines the functions of Body-Scan and Brain-Scan. Transcomp III C Must be used with Audio Act and Comp-Talk (or with Comp-Speak-Hear). Combines the functions of Transcomp I and Transcomp II, allowing for outgoing and incoming translation in five languages. May be used with Transomp Booster. The five languages may be specified at purchase or entered later by polyvox. Brain-Link II D Functions as Brain-Link, save that up to ten other progits can be linked to it. Uses the same cortex coordinator as Brain-Link. Comp-Sight V D Must be used with Helm-Link. This progit combines the functions of Comp-Sight I and Comp-Sight II. Prog-Remote D This progit combines the functions of Prog-Lock, Prog-Switch, and Prog-Motors. Secure Link D Must be used with Audio-Act and Comp-Talk (or Comp-Speak-Hear). This progit combines the functions of Comm-Link, Stop-Hear, and Robo-Link. Co-processor progit A, B, C types This progit, when added to a bodycomp with the appropriate processor, allows some progits of the next higher level to be run. Example: a type B coprocessor progit on a bodycomp with a type B processor allows a type C progit to run. This progit must be of the same level as the processor to work; it must be on the bodycomp, not linked to a helm, and it should be next to the processor. It cannot run a Mastercomp progit. Additionally, only up to three of the higher level progits can be run. # of progits by coprocessor and power pack type A B C Sixpack 6 5 3 Tenpack 10 9 6 Fullpack 12 11 8 Kingpack 12 12 12 Note that if higher level progits are used most of the time, the pack may be drained faster. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Sat, 13 Jan 1996 13:13:36 -0800 RE: Re: Really big fargin ships From: Mark Damon Hughes <kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In my normal contrary style, I agree with you, but for completely different reasons. "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> spake: >I would assume this sort of ship would need a gaggle of normal engines >all over it. If you tried to hook some 'super-atomic-engine' up to it, >you would have incredible stress problems. I'm also not sure that an >engine design can necessarily just be made larger and have it work as >effectively thrust wise (ignoring the stress ripping the engine apart). Um. No. Really big engines are quite doable - in fact, I'd have a hard time buying a LOT of little engines, because you'd have to waste so much infrastructure holding the things on that you'd need more engines, which need more infrastructure, which need more engines, and then you need more fuel, and then you need more engines to move that mass... Unh. Leaving aside James Pellegrino's "starship on a string" design (putting the engine up front, then a fairly small radiation shield, then a long cable stretching back, and then the actual crew capsule, hiding in the rad shield's shadow), or Orion-drive starships, both much more efficient than rockets but are completely out of genre for Star Frontiers, the best engine design is to use a single thruster and get as much economy of scale as you can. I considered hacking the engine designs to this when I was doing my Knight Hawks changes, but settled for just switching to a linear range of # of engines (the weird random changes in the normal table are just silly - if they matched the changes in engine sizes, it'd make some sense, but theirs is just deranged. It's still not perfect, but it's tolerable) - the ships in SF have a limited range of sizes, and having a few separate thrusters is more colorful and space opera-ish. >As well, the Knight Hawks book says that ships of HS5 or smaller ONLY >may land on a planet. A battleship would be like dropping the >enterprise on a planet with chemical engines (IE: a big friggen mess). Why land? You have perfectly good space stations in orbit, and they can have as many little shuttles as they need... No big deal. And if you're not going to land, you can make your starships as large as you like, or any shape you like (though I'd say starships not shaped like rockets or naval vessels are out of genre), as long as the engine(s) thrust along the ship's center of gravity. >A HS100 ship would by simple math have 2000 crew members. Since >generally larger and larger groups of people would need more support >personel, I would say that it would end up being closer to 3000 (you >need at least 5 florists). I dunno about that. You'll need more maintenance personnel, and much bigger computers, and more gunners, for a HS100 vs a HS20 or even a HS5, but if you're just making a large combat ship, you could probably run the entire thing with just a couple hundred people. It's not a linear scale, IMO. >And a ship this large would be able to carry >fewer weapons than a bunch of smaller ships (surface area of this block >of ice vs surface area of that block after shattering it). This, though, I do agree with, more or less. A larger ship could support some horrid new spinal-mount weapon, though, that just wouldn't fit in a smaller ship. I've used dreadnaughts before with new weapons and systems - mostly Sathar, naturally (things like plasma torpedoes and PPDs from SFB, and some of the Interstellar Armory gizmos I don't allow in normal ships). My main problems with big ships are: 1) A fleet of frigates is better than a single large ship. They're cheaper, you can produce more of 'em because every two-credit starport can put one together, and if the enemy DOES blow one up, or sabotages it (we're dealing with the Sathar here, masters of sabotage, infiltration, and betrayal - you think they don't have agents aboard many of ships already?), you're only out one frigate, instead of losing your only ship. 2) Large ships need multiple systems all over the place, and they need a custom critical hit table, because otherwise they're too easy to take out. and most important: 3) It's more colorful and heroic to have little fighters going up against larger ships and winning, and it promotes the ideal of one man being able to change the course of history, which is an appropriate sentiment for the era... The Sathar would be the only ones who would use juggernauts, because the point of having villains is so you can make a thinly-veiled moral lesson like that. -Mark Damon Hughes "I really didn't mean to write so much before I've even had breakfast..."
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:17:35 -0600 RE: modules in someone's auction From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Radgast1@aol.com Chaosium - Call of Cthulhu *********************************** 2330 Return to Dunwich-"No one...can say just what is the matter with Dunwich." $12.00 TSR ************************************ RM2 The Created - Ravenloft "Beware what you wish, for it may come true" $5.00 CM3 Sabre River - D&D module for levels 18-22 $4.00 2019 Dungeoneers survival guide $5.00 2020 Wilderness Survival guide $5.00 RQ1 Night of the Walking Dead - Ravenloft $5.00 1050 Time of the Dragon - Dragonlance Boxed Accessory Set $8.00 PhBR1 Fighters Handbook - $5.00 SFAD6 Dark Side of the Moon - Star Frontiers Module $6.00 - Shrinkwrapped SFKH3 Face of the Enemy - Star Frontiers Module $6.00 - Shrinkwrapped
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:30:30 CST RE: Re: Dralasites with arms in slings <9601100340.AA03548@durin> From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I said: > > Even if you are in the middle of Port Loren, you have > > to take time out to get these quick-fixed: regeneration takes > > weeks/months and I don't believe broken bones mend instantaneously. wes said: > Hmmm... How would you (as game master) play the "City Disability Situation"? > A player has taken a hit to the stomach, and is taken to hospital for > surgery. That character is forced to sit in a hospital bed for, say, two > weeks of game time (he has an extremely high constitution :-). How would you > incorporate the character (or more particularly, the player) into the ongoing > campaign? Give the player a new PC or an NPC for those two weeks? Have The > Bad Guy come in and gloat while the character is lying there helpless? Allow > the player a public access comp console to dredge up info while the other > characters are doing the more active stuff? Or not allow the PC go to > hospital (by some means or other) until the scenario is over? I like the bad guy gloating idea, best. :) I'd have them try to do whatever they could. Try to throw some sort of plot/mini-plot at them while they're there. There's always an organ-legging operation going on for them to stumble on, or druggie orderlies. Or the doctor from the High Peaks Sanitorium making a house call. roymeo
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:51:29 CST RE: Re: entering the void <9601100536.AA03551@durin> From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wes said: > Roymeo eloquently says : > > Well, we can do this now, but we also have no void capability and as > > GM's are given little to work with as far as explanation as to what the > > difficulties are. I know I considered the existance of binary black > > holes one light year to become such a major problem to navigation to and > > from the Vrusk home that the system was abandonded (also has to do with > > screwy Vrusk sense of aesthetics). I've also just recently destroyed > > the moon of a planet in another system...this should almost certainly > > mess up the navigation to and from this system, if not neighboring > > systems. > > The destruction of a moon, per se, should make little difference to things > inside the system, let alone outside it (an Earth-sized planet makes only > a small dent in the gravitational field of the solar system, unless you get > very close). A black hole is a much more impressive thing to fly by (besides > which, you have to fly around them at a distance so that the x-ray emissions > don't fry your computer core). We'll just have to say that void aiming is exceptionally sensitive. That moon COULD make a difference to a suitably sensitive formula. [maybe I'm stretching, maybe not.] > However, the wild patch of debris left behind is another question completely. [snipped wonderful bit about asteroids/debris] good thinking. can't just ignore all those other bodies. > > Now, surely level 6 (or 8) computers should be able to do these sorts of > > calculations. > > The calculation of orbits should need a level 2 or 3 computer. The sticky > part is the volume of data - of all the bodies in our solar system, which Holding the volume isn't a problem...the "gizmo"field can hold all the data necessary. > ones would you consider important enough to include? A cheap (level 2) > version of the navicomp would have a single destination planet - Earth. > All other bodies in the solar system are included only "to avoid". Thus, > Jupiter's moons need not be individually included - the program would treat > Jupiter as a point mass, but with an "avoidance radius" larger than the orbit > of the outermost moon. Thus, asteroids & comets aside, the cheap navicomp > would only contain 11 objects - 10 to avoid (8 planets, a moon & a sun), and > one target object. Hey, this even sounds like a level 1 computer! Uh...that'll work fine for navigation. My perception of what you need to do as far as Voidigation is another matter. I wouldn't allow for 'well, just tell it to stay away from the fuzzy parts of the universe'. Why not include mercury and maybe venus in that field? or just tell it to avoid everything but earth, hence making the ship do a bee-line for earth. System Navigation, yes. calculating the mass of the ship, it's placement and composition, and the 4d variables about the ship for a sucessful Void Jump, no. reminds me of something I read in a 2300AD (I think) module. A Big New Ship (tm) did it's pre-stutterwarp calculations. Then tried to jump, blowing out the system. You see, a cable had run from the ship to the station it was 'docked' at (having just been completed) and so it included the station in it's calculations. Then the ship was moved a little further away from the station and the stutterwarp drive turned on. Well hell, the universe didn't change, why not let it work? :) > > But I don't feel comfortable reducing the role of Astrogator as > > a backup in case all the on-board computers fail. > > True enough... although in many games the Engineer is just a guy who sits > in a box until a machine breaks down. sounds like Star Trek shows > > Making things too easy to planet-hop would reduce a lot of the adventure/ > > risk of space travel. If these models are too easy to construct, there > > would be no reason that jumping to a new system would be too risky. > > There may be a great many things which an astrogater still needs to do. > He's the only one who knows what all the numbers the navicomp is spitting > out. The navicomp may also offer a selection of possible trajectories, from > which the astrogator may choose the one best suiting the ship (the navicomp > need not take particular ship or cargo characteristics into account when > offering a valid trajectory). Interfacing with "traffic control" to make > sure another ship isn't using the same trajectory but coming the other way > is another must. Would seem to me that if anything the traffic control part would be something less likely to be left up to the astrogator. Do airplane pilots get to tell the tower where they're going to come in? No. That would be just another number the navicomp spits out after linking up with the station's computer. > BUT DO YOU KNOW HOW DANGEROUS IT IS TO GO TO THE GAS 'N' SIP?!?!? roymeo .sigs suck
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:56:57 CST RE: Re: Revised SF ship combat <199601101747.JAA06890@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Our Beloved List Owner Commanded: > Fairly well play-tested, though they do tend to make faster ships more > effective than in the original, and there's little incentive to slow down > (so most battles end up sliding all over the map as everyone tries to match > velocities). I also fixed the 1 ADF=2.8G and the short range problem, though > turns are still 10 minutes long, which is silly with modern systems, > but since I treat Frontiers as a '50s-era SF game it's appropriate for > the genre. YMMV. Well, I don't know how unrealistic the 10 minute turns are, other than the fact that you could shoot everything in the first ten minutes and then sit around for a half hour waiting to see if you got them or they got you. There was a story run once in Dragon that was in the same sort of vein as the Star Frontiers spaceship combat....anyone remember that? I was gonna try to dig it out next time I went home for some inspiration and using it to 'brief' the players so they're not wondering where the x-wings are. roymeo
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 12:59:18 -0800 RE: Re: Revised SF ship combat From: Mark Damon Hughes <kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu roymeo@iastate.edu spake: >Our Beloved List Owner Commanded: Ooo, such formal titles! >Well, I don't know how unrealistic the 10 minute turns are, other than >the fact that you could shoot everything in the first ten minutes and >then sit around for a half hour waiting to see if you got them or they >got you. I agree about the distances, but the weapons systems - what kind of guns are these that can fire only every 5 or 10 minutes? Breechloaders? OTOH, I don't want realistic combat, because silent ships coasting through space throwing hundreds of tiny ice pellets (or worse, little Von Neumann machines (nanotech is completely ungenre for SF, but macroscopic VN machines should be okay) with tiny solar sails, and if even a single one finds an enemy ship it transforms it into a hundred more to go hunt down more enemy ships...) at each other just doesn't make for an exciting game... -Mark Damon Hughes
Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:40:09 -0600 RE: Of Breachloaders and Blunder-Bots From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Well, we've all seen the way they load photon torpedos on the Enterprise...so breachloading isn't THAT silly. Ok, yes it is. Maybe it takes the gunner a long time to plot the course of the weapon, just like I've been arguing for the astrogator :). They have to do it all by hand, and account for all the gravity fields in that parsec. Or maybe that chain of command thing we see in Trek is active onboard, too. "They are powering up their weapons, sir." 'Arm Weapons, Shields Up.' "They are within range, sir." 'Fire on my mark.' ... 'Mark.' that's the way it happens in the show. I'd hate to see what happens to the crew if they come across an enemy that lets the gunners decide when to fire, and gives them their own little port/computer to control that from. *Worf notices they are powering up their weapons* "They are powering up the>>>ZZZZZZAAPPPPPPP<<< >VACUUM<< I have a Q&A section which refers to the Von Neumann machine article in Ares #15 (which I don't have). The Q&A give stats for a macro-scale machine. I never considered them on a micro scale. That would be bad, ray. I also wonder how you'd make sure that they didn't eat all of YOUR ships. (or the friendly aliens next door that you don't know about yet) Seems that releasing a bunch of Von Neumann machines in Frontier space would pretty much make ti so the Sathar could just stroll right in. Or if the Frontier could get some to attack to Sathar ships and 'sleep' for a while, then activate in Sathar space. Aside from the control issue, one other problem I could see with them is that they leave nothing for you to salvage. roymeo
Mon, 15 Jan 1996 00:19:53 -0800 (GMT-0800) RE: Re: TS/SI From: Andrew L Chang <changa2@watnxt07.ucr.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wow! I've been in the process of converting the SF system to the TS/SI system for a while now. I too believe that the combat system is really cool. It's nice to know that others have had the same idea. When I get around to it, I'll post what I've got. Servant of God, Andrew L Chang ********************************************************************** The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 **********************************************************************
Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:29:05 -0600 RE: Subspace Radio From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Does subspace radio communicate thru the Void and if it does why not have a Spacial Positioning System to locate your ship relative to another point (that being a subspace radio beacon)?
Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:37:41 PST RE: Re: last test, hopefully. From: Wes Shull <shul9478@uidaho.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu [non SF-ML-related stuff deleted] Um, what was that? -- Wes Shull - shul9478@uidaho.edu - http://www.cs.uidaho.edu/~shul9478 "It is entirely the fault of the almost mind-numbing incompetence of a certain local exchange telephone carrier. Who shall remain anonymous, but has large white trucks with a blue logo and three letters. Their initials are "GTE" but that's all I can say." - Chris Magagna, UI network guy, on why our T1 went down
Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:56:51 -0500 (EST) RE: Re: The Knighthawks Page From: Loki <dankmyka@wfu.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: JohnAslan@aol.com, StarFrontiers List <frontiers@uidaho.edu> > With all of the snow that we have recieved here on the east coast, > at least one of us has put it to good use. (I can't speak for everyone > else on the east coast.) I have redone my Knighthawks page, including > three new maps based on Zeb (only two are up at this time). One of the > improvements (besides easier viewing) that I made is that you can now > save the images to a file on your locale drive if you browser supports > this. (Netscape does.) Check it out and let me know what you think. Hey, wanna mention _where_ this page is, for those of us new to the list? :) -- Kirt A. Dankmyer --- Computer Services Specialist for Carswell Hall Rm 013 Carswell Hall -- x4202 -- dankmyka@wfu.edu -- PGP public key available For the Snark _was_ a Boojum, you see. --Lewis Carroll
Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:02:00 -0500 RE: Re: Subspace Radio From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I would imagine that somehow, SsR would use the physics of the Void to transmit a signal. This is definitely an area of the game that could use some theorizing. I myself have not ventured into it yet. TimC27@aol.com
Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:49:47 -0800 (PST) RE: Re: The Knighthawks Page From: "Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. x2857" <fpatna1@umbc.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: dankmyka@wfu.edu On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Loki wrote: > Hey, wanna mention _where_ this page is, for those of us new to the list? :) I guess that would make it eaiser to find: http://umbc.edu/~fpatna1 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. | "Those who do not learn from Applications Programmer | History are destined to repeat it. Univ MD Baltimore County | And the same goes for Science and fpatna1@umbc.edu | Math." - Woody Boyd, Cheers
Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:55:44 -0600 RE: Astrogation and the Subspace Radio From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Lets say the subspace radio uses tachyons to communicate. Will it take time in the void to get anywhere? Lets say that it does. Subspace radio broadcasters can be set up in systems to radiate on a specific subspace frequency. The ship that wants to navigate the void times the how long a specific subspace radio broadcaster takes to reach the ship. Using several of these broadcasters, the astrogator can get a precise fix on where in space his ship is thus making it easier to calculate a jump. If subspace frequencies cannot pass through a gravity shadow or bounces off, it can be used like radar to locate large masses in the way. Gravity detectors on a ship would detect that bounce and maneuver in the void to avoid :) that mass. Using the subspace radio broadcasters the ship would maneuver back on course. ThankU Darryl Fuller.
Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:49:21 -0800 (PST) RE: BOUNCE frontiers@uidaho.edu: Admin request From: owner-frontiers@uidaho.edu To: owner-frontiers@uidaho.edu
Wed, 17 Jan 96 15:49:08 CST RE: with BSMTP id 1426; Wed, 17 Jan 96 15:50:13 CST BSMTP id 9084; Wed, 17 Jan 96 15:50:13 CST From: RN9128@CMSUVMB.CMSU.EDU To: FRONTIERS@UIDAHO.EDU subscribe frontiers rn9128@cmsuvmb.cmsu.edu
Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:37:17 -0500 RE: Cyborgs From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I just got hold of GW10, Epsilon Cyborgs (module for Gamma World), that somebody on this list (Roymeo, was that you?) mentioned was supposed to have the Star Frontiers cyborg rules in. Quick assessment; it's definitely done in Gamma World rules. The cyborg stuff is an appendix to the module, 8 pages worth. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to convert to Zebulon's Guide rules; replace all the GW equipment with ZG stuff, throw away the AC stuff (or change to various types of defensive suits/screens). When I get time to work with it, I'll post more on the subject. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:24:23 -0500 RE: Re: Astrogation and the Subspace Radio From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I was wondering... do you need a "Subspace Reciever" to pick up subspace transmissions? I would like to think so, just for game-feel purposes. However, I was thinking, maybe subspace radio operates similarly to what we have generally agreed on for void travel, that is a kind of energy blanket that surrounds regular matter. Maybe subspace radio would simply be a method for 'coating' a burst of electrons with a field that has a very precise decay rate. When the decay rate is reached, the electrons would simply 'fall' out of the void and be recieved as a normal radio signal. Whatcha think?
Thu, 18 Jan 96 12:25:17 EST RE: Re: Astrogation and the Subspace Radio From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> OK, I am not a HAM operator, but from what I know of shortwave radio, you cannot pick up shortwave stuff with a normal radio. I think you can pick up 'normal' radio (AM and FM) with shortwaves, but not vice-versa. That is how I always personally imagined subspace radios: souped-up shortwaves. You can theoretically carry one on your back, and it can pick up transmissions from all of the other radio bands. One needs a subspace radio to pick up subspace radio transmissions, but I always thought that StarLaw and/or MANY other organizations would always be monitoring subspace frequencies for distress signals, information, etc. So, a subspace radio CAN pick up communications from Chronocoms, but remember that a) they have to be on the same frequency and b) the range is still 5km (1000 for radiophones?) because the distance is a function of transmission power, not 'pickup' power. me, delmar watkins
Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:59:33 -0600 RE: Re: Astrogation and the Subspace Radio From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 12:25 PM 1/18/96 EST, you wrote: >OK, I am not a HAM operator, but from what I know of shortwave >radio, you cannot pick up shortwave stuff with a normal radio. >I think you can pick up 'normal' radio (AM and FM) with shortwaves, >but not vice-versa. > >That is how I always personally imagined subspace radios: souped-up >shortwaves. You can theoretically carry one on your back, and it can >pick up transmissions from all of the other radio bands. One needs >a subspace radio to pick up subspace radio transmissions, but I always >thought that StarLaw and/or MANY other organizations would always be >monitoring subspace frequencies for distress signals, information, etc. > >So, a subspace radio CAN pick up communications from Chronocoms, but >remember that a) they have to be on the same frequency and b) the range >is still 5km (1000 for radiophones?) because the distance is a function >of transmission power, not 'pickup' power. > >me, >delmar watkins > > In the case of signals being picked up, think about radar. I radar will detect something out to so many miles but the location can be triangulated at a further range. ThankU Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:07:35 -0500 RE: cyborgs From: IndyCCTX@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I just got hold of GW10, Epsilon Cyborgs (module for Gamma World), that somebody on this list (Roymeo, was that you?) mentioned was supposed to have the Star Frontiers cyborg rules in. Quick assessment; it's definitely done in Gamma World rules. The cyborg stuff is an appendix to the module, 8 pages worth. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to convert to Zebulon's Guide rules; replace all the GW equipment with ZG stuff, throw away the AC stuff (or change to various types of defensive suits/screens). When I get time to work with it, I'll post more on the subject. Never go on an adventure without a hat! Indy IndyCCTX@aol.com (The Junkman)
Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:40:01 -0600 RE: test From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu darryl sent to me: Everytime I try to respond to what someone has posted or try to post to the frontiers mailing list now I receive it back saying something about Insufficient Permission. I have absolutely no idea about it. ThankU Darryl Fuller. thus I am testing this for myself.. roymeo
Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:14:58 -0600 RE: test From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Send me email if you recieve this. This is a test. ThankU Darryl Fuller.
Fri, 19 Jan 1996 22:27:49 CST RE: Re: test <199601200414.WAA02608@n-link.com> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu yes I got it. if you check the permission failed message, you see it has a full email address associated with it. someone on the server lost their account. nothing we can do except ask kamekaze to remove him from the list roy
Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:47:39 -0500 RE: Re: test From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I received it. Tim
Sat, 20 Jan 1996 20:47:47 -0600 RE: Subspace Radio From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Someone mentioned that they thought subspace radio was a regular radio wave encapsulated in a field (tachyon?) that degraded to the point where the signal was intercepted at the right receiving station. I think the subspace radio is a tachyon beam that can be focused like a cone in a general direction and received by a tachyon receiver. While a tachyon receiver would relatively be light weight the sending unit itself would be quite large requiring enourmous power. In an iteresting experiment, two photons from the same particle traveled down two different lengths of an interferometer but came back at the same time. Could this be instantaneous communication from large distances. The photons could travel back and forth, the distance they go being like morse code. ThankU Darryl Fuller.
Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:25:38 EST RE: sathar From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> OK, everyone knows that the sathar are out there. For those of you who ahve read the 'Beyond the Frontier' modules, they know that the sathar are also clanlike and have not totally attacked the frontier because they fight amongst themselves (Sounds like the Battletech clans....) Has anyone out there ever dealt with this situation? Has anyone ever had the sathar come in direct SPEAKING contact with the sathar? I remember when I was about 10 and playing that the GM sent us against the sathar: we were able to infiltrate the ship, get caught, talk our way out of the cell block (I don't remember how) and then got back to frontier space. We were heroes. If I remember right, though, we were then picked up by other aliens who were enemies of the sathar, given hypnotic blocks, and made secret agents of the aliens. Or somesuch. SO, that is how much we came into SOCIAL contact about the sathar when I was a player. DOes anyone have any info created on these nasty (?) wyrms? me, delmar watkins
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 01:20:34 -0500 (EST) RE: Zebulon Data Library From: "Frank W. Patnaude Jr." <fpatna1@gl.umbc.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I have completed part 1 of the Zebulon Data Library. This has information about each system of the frontier, some neat graphics and distances to every other system in the frontier. Part 2 will be to add some information about each planet in each system. If you find any incoreect information, feel free to let me know. The URL is: http://umbc.edu/~fpatna1/knight.htm Check it out and let me know what you think. Frank fpatna1@umbc.edu
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:07:54 -0500 RE: Zebulon Data Library -Reply From: sbartell@novell.com (Steve Bartell) To: frontiers@uidaho.edu >>> Frank W. Patnaude Jr. <fpatna1@gl.umbc.edu> 01/21/96 11:20pm >>> I have completed part 1 of the Zebulon Data Library. This has information about each system of the frontier, some neat graphics and distances to every other system in the frontier. Part 2 will be to add some information about each planet in each system. If you find any incoreect information, feel free to let me know. The URL is: http://umbc.edu/~fpatna1/knight.htm >>> Is this URL address correct? I have gotten an error message when I try to access it saying it does not exist. thanks, Steve Bartell
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:15:31 CST RE: Re: sathar <960121.193017.EST.DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > OK, everyone knows that the sathar are out there. For those of you > who ahve read the 'Beyond the Frontier' modules, they know that the sathar > are also clanlike and have not totally attacked the frontier because they > fight amongst themselves (Sounds like the Battletech clans....) I am likely to run this stealing big chunks from the Star Controll 2 computer game. two clans battling between their differing philosophies: universal enslavement or universal genocide. Never played or GMed a 'friendly' sathar encounter. I could see some use for this: put the players in a position where they pretend to work as sathar agents to help get information...problem is, that afterwards there is some media slanted that they really had 'gone over'. roymeo
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:27:47 -0500 (CDT) RE: Knight Hawks page From: "Jeffrey St. John" <jjs1880@UTARLG.UTA.EDU> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: "JEFFREY,JAMES STJOHN" <jjs1880@UTARLG.UTA.EDU> Try http://www.gl.umbc.edu/~fpatna1/knight.htm ^--add ^--one not L Jeff
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:23:11 -0800 RE: Re: sathar From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@peak.org> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > stealing big chunks from the Star Control 2 computer game. Boy, that'd be fun. Can you imagine the look on the PCs faces when they run into a ship full of creepy black Sathar calling themselves the Kor-Ah? Even more amusing, of course, would be bringing in the Spathi and/or the Zoq-Fot-Pik. Somebody stop me before I start writing up stats...
Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:36:18 CST RE: Re: sathar <199601222323.PAA06954@PEAK.ORG> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@peak.org> >> stealing big chunks from the Star Control 2 computer game. > >Boy, that'd be fun. Can you imagine the look on the PCs faces when they > run into a ship full of creepy black Sathar calling themselves the > Kor-Ah? > >Even more amusing, of course, would be bringing in the Spathi and/or the > Zoq-Fot-Pik. > >Somebody stop me before I start writing up stats... That thought *smells* very *squishy*!!! roymeo
Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:14:15 -0600 (CST) RE: Re: Zebulon Data Library -Reply From: Thorne Aaron W <awt851s@nic.smsu.edu> To: Steve Bartell <sbartell@novell.com> CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Steve Bartell wrote: > >>> Frank W. Patnaude Jr. <fpatna1@gl.umbc.edu> 01/21/96 11:20pm > >>> > I have completed part 1 of the Zebulon Data Library. This has information > about each system of the frontier, some neat graphics and distances to > every other system in the frontier. Part 2 will be to add some information > about each planet in each system. If you find any incoreect information, > feel free to let me know. The URL is: > > http://umbc.edu/~fpatna1/knight.htm > >>> > Is this URL address correct? I have gotten an error message when I try > to access it saying it does not exist. > > thanks, > Steve Bartell > > I had the same problem, until I realized that it is fpatna_1_, as in the number. Cool page, BTW. - Aaron Thorne
Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:04:46 CST RE: Re: Zebulon Data Library -Reply <Pine.3.89.9601231239.A79376-0100000@nic.smsu.edu> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I really liked those maps, frank. I wanna know how you did them. on the getting to the page thing: it worked from the pointer on my page when frank first made the announcement, then later it wouldn't. This is either because the school just changed the addressing, OR as i changed my pointer from Point Epsilon to the SF page perhaps the server allows the -www.gl form for the main page but everything else requires the +www.gl extension. *shrug* looks great, though roymeo
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:15:14 +1100 RE: Re: Really big fargin ships From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Sorry I'm late with this. I've been sick. I do have a note from my mother 'though... Roy says : > gah! > How many Death Stars are they going to make??? > > The Juggernaut ship the sathar made (Day of the Juggernaut, Dragon 91) > was 480 Hull points (480/5 = Hull Size 96 (possibly less, as ADF and MR > can be sacrificed for Hull points)) thus about that huge size. > > This is a prototype ship, and only one is built because of it's enormous > cost. [deletia] > Generally, I think these sort of ships are so large as to be silly. A > HS20 Battleship has 400 crew members. "The biggest disadvantage of the > battleship is its extreme cost; only three have been commissioned at the > current time." > > A HS100 ship would by simple math have 2000 crew members. Ah! But a HS1 ship has a crew of 1, not 20. Instead, the number of crew should go up with the square of size (there's always more things to do on bigger ships, requiring more people to do them). A HS100 ship would need around 10,000 crew members. As I was reading this, I had a mental picture of a most glorious enterprise : Goliath, the only HS100 ship ever commissioned in the Frontier. Three local economies were destroyed to finance it, half of an asteroid field emptied for raw materials, specially designed boolean-quantum-hyper-drives to push the bloody thing. Its ambitious task - to new colony world and new civilisations, to boldly go where yazirian have never gone before! <fanfare> The day of launch has arrived. Four minor cities have ceased to exist, not only to supply the personpower for the crew, but also happy (?) volunteers to set up new colonies as the ship sweeps through the galaxy. Bands are playing, people are cheering, politicians lap up the publicity and contemplate calling early elections (we do that sort of thing in Australia). T-30mins the engines are turned on. T-5mins the tractor beams are cut. T-0mins the ship (which is plainly visible from the planet's surface, and has caused low-level tidal damage while in orbit) gracefully pulls away from the planet. T+45mins the ship, the harbinger of hopes and dreams of an entire civilisation, slams into Gran Quivera. Unfortunately, the engineers had so cut back on other areas to maximise carrying capacity, that its MR was reduced to 0. Well, it made >me< laugh. - Wes
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:25:55 +1100 RE: Re: Dralasites with arms in slings From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Yes, I'm still catching up... Roymeo says : > I like the bad guy gloating idea, best. :) Me too. Especially when they're hovering around you're IV with a strange looking substance in a hypodermic. > I'd have them try to do whatever they could. Try to throw some sort of > plot/mini-plot at them while they're there. There's always an > organ-legging operation going on for them to stumble on, "... The agent is commended for cleverly cracked the organ-legging operation while actually being a patient of the hospital. Yes, the agent became somewhat suspicious of the doctor when he noticed his liver was missing ..." - Wes
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:21:19 +1100 RE: Re: Banks and finance From: Wesley Prosser <wes@deakin.edu.au> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Again, sorry for rehashing old news. IndyCCTX writes : > Fantasy type games won't have interest, it's out of character for the time > period. Untrue. The ancient Phoenicians invented money-lending. The Roman Empire often had to borrow money from all sorts of sources (at often extortionist rates of interest) to finance wars and public works - especially in the outer provinces where locals tended to not accept Roman currency. Many ancient finance institutions were just as developed as modern-day ones. Almost the only difference is that modern-day ones have the advantage of telecommunications and computers. All D&D players should be allowed to invest their hard-won GPs, especially before a stock-market crash. - Wes
Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:33:07 -0800 (GMT-0800) RE: Re: Zebulon Data Library -Reply From: Andrew L Chang <changa2@watnxt07.ucr.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu The maps are awesome! Were you planning to include info about each planet in the system such as the ones described by the various submissions to this list? Servant of God, Andrew L Chang ********************************************************************** The Lord is our God, the Lord alone. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 **********************************************************************
Wed, 24 Jan 96 15:09:24 CST RE: Zebulan's Guide From: richard neal 1600-07 <RN9128@cmsuvmb.cmsu.edu> To: "owner/frontiers@uidaho.edu" <frontiers@uidaho.edu> This may sound like a stupid question, but has anyone ever heard if they published a second issue of The Guide? Please write back. Thanks.
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:22:13 CST RE: Re: Zebulan's Guide <960124.151213.CST.RN9128@CMSUVMB> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > This may sound like a stupid question, but has anyone ever >heard if they published a second issue of The Guide? Please write back. > > Thanks. They absolutely did not. The ZG was supposed to be 6 32page booklets. They scrapped it before it could be finished and printed some of what they had, leaving in all those false-hope inspiring (See further editions...) roymeo
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:45:56 -0600 RE: 2010 Module From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Someone said a store still had a 2010 Module in shrinkwrap. If anyone knows or can get their hands on I would be grateful to pay. It's my birthday next month. ThankYu Darryl Fuller.
Wed, 24 Jan 1996 23:46:41 -0500 RE: Re: Really big fargin ships From: TimC27@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Wes, Now that was a really big fargin ship. Did it cause some unwanted tectonic activity? did it attract any asteroids by its shear pull? Did it generate its own natural gravity? Alas, we will never know. TimC27
Thu, 25 Jan 1996 03:03:04 -0500 (EST) RE: Re: 2010 Module From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu > Someone said a store still had a 2010 Module in shrinkwrap. If anyone knows > or can get their hands on I would be grateful to pay. It's my birthday next If you get the "American Science and Surplus" catalog (formerly known as JerryCo), they sell it on their Games page for $2.00. I got one on a lark last fall. Shrink-wrapped, looks brand new. Daniel Pawtowski dpawtows@vt.edu
Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:47:06 -0800 (PST) RE: Re: 2010 Module From: "Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. x2857" <fpatna1@umbc.edu> To: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu> CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Daniel Pawtowski wrote: > If you get the "American Science and Surplus" catalog (formerly known > as JerryCo), they sell it on their Games page for $2.00. I got one on > a lark last fall. Shrink-wrapped, looks brand new. You wouldn't happend to have an address for the catalog, would you? Thanks, Frank =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. | "Those who do not learn from Applications Programmer | History are destined to repeat it. Univ MD Baltimore County | And the same goes for Science and fpatna1@umbc.edu | Math." - Woody Boyd, Cheers
Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:12:15 -0600 RE: Re: 2010 Module From: Thomas Fuller <tfuller@n-link.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu At 03:03 AM 1/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >> Someone said a store still had a 2010 Module in shrinkwrap. If anyone knows >> or can get their hands on I would be grateful to pay. It's my birthday next > > If you get the "American Science and Surplus" catalog (formerly known >as JerryCo), they sell it on their Games page for $2.00. I got one on >a lark last fall. Shrink-wrapped, looks brand new. > > Daniel Pawtowski >dpawtows@vt.edu > > > How do I get the "American Science and Surplus" catalog? ThankU D. Fuller
Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:37:30 -0500 RE: Heavy Cruiser Deckplans. From: Rroorr@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu There seems to be a lot of interest in old Star Frontiers modules and such, (as one would expect here) but I was thinking, we all have work that we've done for the game that would help fellow players and G.M.'s. I'm writing this to offer up a little work I've completed for Star Frontiers using the Knight Hawks rules. I created deck plans for a refitted UPF Heavy Cruiser designed to chart new navigational routes, explore new worlds and new civilizations, To boldly go where no Dralasites, Yazirians, Humans, and Vrusk have gone.... well, you get the idea. There are two minor problems. I have neither the time or the inclination to convert them from graph paper to some sort of bitmap format. (It took a week to create them on Graph paper, and I'm no computer expert) and I get pressed for time on occasion. The offer is this. If anyone is interested in getting a copy of them, I'll send them free of charge via "snail mail". (this will require a name and address, but if you have doubts, Roymeo on this list serve will verify that this is on the up and up, as I've sent him a copy, among others. (Currently 4 others) If you have any home built modules including floor plans, vehicle stats, or whatever (Roymeo sent me about 20 pages of old Dragon articles about S.F. that I missed, Thanks again! ;-) ), I wouldn't mind a copy of them in exchange, but I'd settle for a little feedback on my work. (any group that would spend 30 messages plus debating the pseudophysics of travel through the void must have opinions about my deck plans) I designed the Heavy Cruiser to be a base of operations for a group of Spacefleet Golwin Academy Graduates, but it will work for a one shot adventure just as well. (Terrorists seize the newly refitted Heavy Cruiser and the P.C.'s are the only ones onboard that can stop them from jumping into the void with the new technology) If you are interested in getting twelve decks, a large, two page side view, a seven page description, and plans for the hull size two shuttle craft the cruiser uses for planetary landings all for the low, low price of $0.00, then send your name and address to Rroorr@AOL.com, and I'll send a copy as soon as I'm able to make them up and send them out. (as I've said, I get busy at times, so be patient.)
Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:37:00 -0500 (EST) RE: Re: 2010 Module From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@cray-ymp.acm.stuorg.vt.edu> To: fpatna1@umbc.edu (Frank W. Patnaude, Jr. x2857) CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu > You wouldn't happend to have an address for the catalog, would you? American Science & Surplus 3605 Howard St., Skokie, IL 60076 It's a surplus catalog, they don't list every item in every issue The "Games" page wasn't even in the latest one. It'll probably re-appear in a later issue. If it does, search carefully, the page is in very small type. It took me ten minutes to find the 2010 module *after* my brother told me it was listed. Daniel Pawtowski dpawtows@vt.edu
Fri, 26 Jan 1996 10:31:17 -0600 (CST) RE: Re: Heavy Cruiser Deckplans. From: Christopher Smith <heartlan@mill2.millcomm.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 Rroorr@aol.com wrote: > I have neither the time or the inclination to convert them from graph paper > to some sort of bitmap format. (It took a week to create them on Graph > paper, and I'm no computer expert) and I get pressed for time on occasion. If someone is willing to scan these (I don't have a scanner), I'll HTML them and put them on my web site. I'll do that for any SF materials people might want published, as long as they're not too big (max 1MB or so) I also played around with my Street Atlas CDROM and used it to make some good generic local maps for RPG use - seems to beat hand drawing 'em. I've put 5 multi-use maps there for printing or downloading. The URL is: http://www.millcomm.com/~heartlan/sf1.html ^ "one" Comments/criticism/suggestions always appreciated. Chris =========================================================================== "No longer do we see through the rose-colored glass. Times have changed... All things are possible in this generation of swine." -Hunter S. Thompson -----GEEK CODE 3.1----- GTW d s++: a- C++ U>++ P+ L>+ E? W++ N+ !o !K-- w+() !O M- V? PS@ PE++ Y+ PGP(--) t+() !5 X+> R(++)* tv+> b+++ DI+++ D+>++ G(+) e++ h---- r+++ z?@ ===========================================================================
Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:04:47 -0600 (MDT) RE: Re: Heavy Cruiser Deckplans. From: Eric Winsor <IGGY@cc.usu.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu
Sat, 27 Jan 1996 01:23:49 -0800 RE: [GURPS] SF Races From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kstclair@peak.org> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu In the list archives, I saw someone posted writeups for the PC races from Star Frontiers for the Hero system. For those who might prefer to use GURPS, here's my attempt: ORIGINAL RACES -------------- from Alpha Dawn DRALASITES Dralasites have +1 to HT (10 points) and -1 to DX (-10 points). Their racial advantages are Acute Taste/Smell +1 (2 points), Extra Flexibility (10 points), one Extra Limb which can be an arm or a leg as desired (30 points), and Regrowth (40 points). They have the disadvantages of Color Blindness (-10 points) and Invertebrate (-20 points), as well as the quirks of Don't Like to Wear Clothes (-1 point) and Strange Sense of Humor (-1 point). All Dralasites can Detect Lies at IQ-1 (2 points). It costs 52 points to play a Dralasite. HUMANS Humans, as usual, cost 0 points to play. VRUSK Vrusk have ST -1 (-10 points) and DX +1 (10 points). They have the advantages Ambidexterity (10 points), Extra Flexibility (arms only; 10 points), 8 legs (15 points), and PD 1 (25 points). Their racial disadvantages are Inconvenient Size (-10 points), Sense of Duty (to their company, -10 points), and Stubborness (-10 points). All Vrusk learn the skill Savoir-Faire at IQ (1 point) and have a bonus of +1 with Anthropology (4 points). It costs 35 points to play a Vrusk. (If desired, replace Inconvenient Size with one level of Increased Life Support; both have the same point value. Most PC Vrusk will have a different Sense of Duty, if any.) [I still haven't found a better disadvantage than Stubborness to indicate the Vrusk racial conservatism, etc. And then there's the problem with swimming. Any ideas?] YAZIRIANS Yazirians are -1 to HT (-10 points) and +1 to DX (10 points) and IQ (10 points). They have the advantages Alertness +1 (5 points), Gliding (20 points), and Night Vision (10 points). Their racial disadvantages are Berserk (-15 points) and Impulsiveness (-10 points). Many Yazirians also take a Vow (i.e., a life-enemy). It costs 20 points to be a Yazirian. SATHAR Sathar have a -1 to ST (-10 points), -1 to DX (-10 points), and 4 extra points of Fatigue (20 points). They have a Constriction Attack (15 points) and Extra Flexibility (10 points), as well as Peripheral Vision (15 points). Their disadvantages include Fanaticism (-15 points), Odious Racial Habits (-10 points), and Reputation -3 (-15 points). Sathar have the racial skills of Hypnotism at IQ+2 (8 points) and Leadership at IQ (2 points). The racial cost for Sathar is -5 points. Sathar are not allowed as PCs. NEW RACES --------- from Zebulon's Guide HUMMA Humma have ST +2 (20 points). Their tails count as an striker with a reach of 2 (25 points); however, their short arms are reach 0 and -2 to grapple (-30 points). Their racial advantages are Immunity to Poisons (25 points) and Super Jump x3 (30 points). Racial disadvantages for Humma are Bad Temper (-10 points), No Sense of Smell/Taste (-5 points), Reputation -1 (-5 points) and Stubborness (-5 points). Humma learn Brawling at DX+1 (2 points) and Carousing at DX-1 (1 point). It costs 48 points to be a Humma. (Super Jump is from GURPS Supers. Humma can make 12 yard long jumps, or 3 yards straight up. Jumps of 25 yards/meters, as per Zebulon's Guide, would raise the racial cost to 78 points.) IFSHNITS Ifshnits are -1 to ST (-10 points) and +1 to IQ (10 points). They have Nictating Membranes (15 points) and Polarized Eyes (5 points). Their disadvantages are Compulsive Behavior (Haggling, -5 points) and Enemy (Sathar and their agents, 9 or less; -30 points). Ifshnits learn Merchant at IQ+2 (6 points). The cost to play a Ifshnit is -9 points. MECHANONS Mechanons are built according to the rules in GURPS Robots. Eorna technology, and thus most Mechanon technology, is TL 11. Mechanons are not allowed as PCs (in most cases, anyway). OSAKAR Osakar have +1 to their ST (10 points) and DX (10 points). They have Acute Taste/Smell +2 (4 points), two levels of Language Talent (4 points), and Voice (10 points). Their racial disadvantages are Reputation -2 (-10 points) and the quirks Very Religious (pick one; -1 point) and Wears Extravagant Clothing (-1 point). Osakar cost 26 points to play. -------------------------- Kelly St.Clair kstclair@kira.peak.org
Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:24:41 -0500 RE: Re: [GURPS] SF Races From: JBaichtal@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Kelly -- great job on writing up the races for GURPS.
Sat, 27 Jan 1996 19:57:35 -0600 RE: what is so bad about a dead game From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu response to some email I received: >Dear Roy >Star Frontiers isn't supported any more, is it? Not even in >magazines or fanzines? >What types of things do you pick up to support your campaign? >Curiously, >Hyperodge correct. That is one of the best things about the game. It requires no more investment (not that a company putting out a suppliment REQUIRES you buying it, that is often the case that people do when they are actively playing a game). T$R won't fuck up my universe ala the way some feel about the traveller virus. Nor will they produce The Complete Matter Transferal Bin Technicians Handbook. Sci-fi is sci-fi. you can use ideas from just about any game drop the force from star frontiers. drop the empire or virus frm traveller. take the cyber-emphasis out of cyberpunk. toss the magic out of shadowrun. Steal ideas from the other posters on the star frontiers. Steal the story line from Star Controll 2 and other computer games. Top Secret and espionage, 2300AD, Solaris 7 for battletech. As many people that I know of who look down their noses at running 'modules' produced by others, the question should be: why do people look at out-of-print games as if playing them was impossible? roy
Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:18:52 -0600 (CST) RE: Re: what is so bad about a dead game From: Christopher Smith <heartlan@mill2.millcomm.com> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu CC: frontiers@uidaho.edu On Sat, 27 Jan 1996 roymeo@iastate.edu wrote (in part): > As many people that I know of who look down their noses at running > 'modules' produced by others, the question should be: why do people > look at out-of-print games as if playing them was impossible? Seems to me that those are the "module-only" players, who like to have everything spelled out for them, and don't want to take the time to make their own materials. They seem to be the majority of players/GM's, especially with TSR's games. (Not wrong, just _different_ ;) Me - I ran maybe 2 modules in 7 years of GM'ing - and one of those I wrote myself. The rest was just interwoven continual "make it up as we go along" plotlines. I think SF for some reason lends itself to this style of playing more than any other RPG I've seen. Can't say for sure why this is. I'm curious to know how others play - what % modules, what % winging it? Chris =========================================================================== "No longer do we see through the rose-colored glass. Times have changed... All things are possible in this generation of swine." -Hunter S. Thompson -----GEEK CODE 3.1----- GTW d s++: a- C++ U>++ P+ L>+ E? W++ N+ !o !K-- w+() !O M- V? PS@ PE++ Y+ PGP(--) t+() !5 X+> R(++)* tv+> b+++ DI+++ D+>++ G(+) e++ h---- r+++ z?@ ===========================================================================
Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:57:30 CST RE: Past Games, mod or wing? From: dentojn@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU To: FRONTIERS@uidaho.edu From: Christopher Smith <heartlan@mill2.millcomm.com> Subject: Re: what is so bad about a dead game >I'm curious to know how others play - what % modules, what >% winging it? Funny you should ask, my first roleplaying experience ever was Star Fronters. It was a long (8 month - solo adventure) campaign, and probably my most enjoyable roleplaying experience. He ran a more futuristic version of Star Frontiers, with instanious space travel, anti-grav ships and alot of stuff stolen from current day Science Fiction (Ring World, Armor, Hitchhicker). All of his stuff was made up and he never even had any of the modules, just the first boxed set (3 holed punched version). My character went from former military officer to leader of the Universe (never said it was realistic, but sci-fi never is). Still think back to those days when I had so much fun. Now, after that game, I went and played AD&D (please don't flame me) and played it a few times, then bought Space Opera (it really sucked), then GURPS, then sold both of them and bought Rolemaster/Space Master but never really got to find players, then found both SF boxed sets and Zebulons Guide at Walden Books for 75% off, and bought everything they had. I was much happier and ran my first game after that. Right now I run a Rolemaster campaign and I am thinking of starting a Space Master campaign with the SF races (coolest aliens ever) if I do I will post my conversion for SF to Space Master. Jody Denton // Out in the city, in the cold world outside A.K.A. // I don't want pity, just a safe place to hide Jimmy Z. Zavala \X/ "Mother Love" : Queen 1995
Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:47:34 -0500 RE: Re: what is so bad about a dead game From: Rroorr@aol.com To: frontiers@uidaho.edu I am in perfect agreement with Roymeo about the advantages in playing in a "dead" or unsupported game world. T$R has a very strong tendency to not leave well enough alone. I also run an AD&D campaign and it's been going strong on a "Dead" campaign world for years now. I, like many others here, use about 10% or less of store bought modules and create most of my adventures myself. I prefer worlds that were officially "dropped" from the line, but I do miss the information rich supplements. In Star Frontiers, I create my own, or borrow information about the worlds from this list serve. I've found that the work that can be found here is as good or better than any created by TSR.
Sun, 28 Jan 96 19:03:03 EST RE: From: delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> To: Star Frontiers Listserv <frontiers@uidaho.edu> For those of you who create most of the adventurs, etc. for yourself, I have a question If you expend all of that work making modules, and thus say it is better to runl a 'dead' system, why do you even use the system at all? With just a little effort, you can create a new, better system that will suit your individual needs better, come up with cool campaign stuff that NO ONE can contradict because it is yours, and tailor your world to the siutation at hand? It seems to me that while TSR doesn't know when enough is enough, it is always good to have ideas floating around. Sure, people say 'You can convert anything to Star Frontiers' But at some point it divcerges from the initial feel. You can't really convert cyberpunk to SF, nor shadowrun because it FEELS different, has a different tone and style. So, if you really like to create, why stick to SF except out of a feeling of NOSTALGIA, not creativity? If creativity is really that important, then don't stick with SF: poets have long ago abandoned Latin because English, as flawed as it is, is more flexible. me, delmar watkins
Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:54:37 -0500 (EST) RE: Re: your mail From: "Bill W Kte'pi" <bwkF93@hamp.hampshire.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu With all due respect, if you honestly think that designing a new, sensible system -- particularly one different enough from existing game systems to make it worth the time and effort -- is only a little more complicated than writing up an adventure, your understanding of the gaming industry is extraordinarily limited. .............................................................................. "Why can't we pick out our own colors?" bill/kte.pi - Mr. Pink bwkF93@hamp.hampshire.edu "It don't work, you get four guys Nathan_Adler@LambdaMOO fighting over who gets to be Mr. Black." Vainglory@FurryMUCK - Joe "Reservoir Dogs" ..............................................................................
Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:00:55 -0800 RE: Creating your own game system From: Mark Damon Hughes <kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu [warning: lengthy post ahead] delmar watkins <DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> spake: >With just a little effort, you can create a new, better >system that will suit your individual needs better, come up with cool >campaign stuff that NO ONE can contradict because it is yours, >and tailor your world to the siutation at hand? Heh... Spoken like one who has never written a game system of his own. I've tried it twice, and I've been gaming heavily and playing and modifying dozens of games for about 17 years now. The first time, I just made a freeform character-description system, and those are a dime a dozen. Even so, it had serious flaws (but fitting on just two sides of a page was the redeeming feature). The second system I wrote was a full RPG, but it's unfinished because I discovered FUDGE, and saw no need to finish my system when it worked perfectly well. Even so, my own system is fairly good, not just IMO but in the opinions of the playtesters and the friends who've read it, but it's too complex at times (combat especially) and too simplistic at other times (I still have no mechanic for 'continuing skills', like TORG's dramatic skill resolution). Making a *GOOD* game is tough. Making one that has the right balance of speed, genre-accuracy, and game balance, is a -10 CS task. In contrast, adventures are not all that hard to write - players often don't notice any mechanical flaws in the adventures, as long as they're well-described and internally consistent. Settings are not all that hard to make, either, though GOOD settings are just as hard as good rules - T$R certainly never put as much effort into the SF setting as they should have (the concept is excellent and the races are great, but there's nowhere near enough detail on planets, and glossing over the homeworld issue was a poor decision). Given the base of two sets of good rules and a good starting concept, SF is far above a lot of other games. >It seems to me that while TSR doesn't know when enough is enough, >it is always good to have ideas floating around. Sure, people >say 'You can convert anything to Star Frontiers' But at some point >it divcerges from the initial feel. You can't really convert >cyberpunk to SF, nor shadowrun because it FEELS different, has a different >tone and style. Actually, most plots are universal, and in most games sapient nature is pretty much the same, so you can steal plots and characters from all over the place. Just as importantly, there's a massive amount of science fiction lit. in Star Frontiers' genre - so much that you can't possibly ever run out of inspirational ideas even if you're not personally capable of coming up with your own. >So, if you really like to create, why stick to SF except out of a >feeling of NOSTALGIA, not creativity? If creativity is really >that important, then don't stick with SF: poets have long ago >abandoned Latin because English, as flawed as it is, is more flexible. Er, no. Few people write poetry in Latin any more because few people speak Latin. Whether or not English is a better language is irrelevant - if the common language of the world was still Latin, and English was a dead language, most poetry would be in Latin, other than a few uneducated English louts. Using a published set of rules and setting, similarly, gives us all a common base to work from. This list, for instance, would not exist without that commonality - a list "for people who play '50s-style hard science fiction games of their own design with subversive worm-like alien enemies" would be unlikely. -Mark Damon Hughes
Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:29:24 CST RE: Makings of Modules vs Game Systems <960128.190955.EST.DWATK00@ukcc.uky.edu> From: "rev. roy crisman" <roymeo@iastate.edu> To: frontiers@uidaho.edu delmar said: >For those of you who create most of the adventurs, etc. for yourself, >I have a question >If you expend all of that work making modules, and thus say it is >better to runl a 'dead' system, why do you even use the system >at all? Because I like the feel of the system. Because of all of the effort I've already put into it. It would be a waste of the effort I've put into the game to not be able to run some sort of epic adventure. You make it sound like I am making production-ready modules. I probably 'waste' more time reading a module that someone else created than I must 'waste' sitting domn plotting an adventure. Planing out things in the shower, riding to class, etc. don't count as wasting time. These are things I couldn't do if I had to have a module open in front of me. I also have the bad habit of stopping the action and flipping through the module for that thing that I can't remember, and even contradicting myself when I later find that I'd said something 'wrong'. Because no matter what the system, I'm going to end up making up adventures/winging adventures. The only time this isn't required is when you are totally 'module hopping'. Who cares how we got from being CDC guns to Star Law when we go from Mission to Alcazzar to the KH 3 part series? And the SF modules make a lot more sense as a whole than the far flung modules of most systems. Well, that doesn't cut it for me or my players. They are going to want to go out into Port Loren, figure out that the Hole-In-The-Wall in a porn shop, bust some drug dealers, start their own bar, and have varoius limbs removed by the thugs of a Sathar controlled 6 year old human kid. This means I do work no matter the system. Why not do it for my favorite system? Mostly just because Dralasites are the supreme beings and deserve to be worshipped. > With just a little effort, you can create a new, better >system that will suit your individual needs better, come up with cool >campaign stuff that NO ONE can contradict because it is yours, >and tailor your world to the siutation at hand? Uh. Then you STILL have to create modules. So, we can either do work MODULE or we can do work SYSTEM+MODULE. And IMO, it is FAR harder to make a rules system and a universe to go with it than it is to just hang an idea upon them. And at least the dead system has a few other people playing it that you can share ideas with. >It seems to me that while TSR doesn't know when enough is enough, >it is always good to have ideas floating around. Sure, people >say 'You can convert anything to Star Frontiers' But at some point >it divcerges from the initial feel. You can't really convert >cyberpunk to SF, nor shadowrun because it FEELS different, has a >different tone and style. You don't 'convert'. Convert sounds like using a table to translate numbers while still playing slave to the module. I prefer, when looking at other system's modules/sourcebooks to ''rape'' them for ideas, maybe even running one scenario mostly as-is from a module for one game, without the players ever knowing it. Of course it feels different if you are looking at it like a CPU looking at a program. There's no Vrusk in that cyberpunk module, and there are friggen trolls in the shadowrun. Look at it like a mad scientist. Take bits from this and bits from that till they can't tell that that humaniod is made from monster-parts...and if you look too carefully at the SF material you'll start to see the stitches, too. There is no difference between using Hunt For Red October as inspiration vs a Top Secret sub module. Except that one has everything in a much easier form to use. What is a cyberpunk module but an uban merc mission with a bunch of glitter to appeal to the munchkins? If it is really so hard to transform gendre why don't people refer to Star Wars as a Western in space? So much of it is based off the old Westerns yet I watch it and feel the energy of a Space Opera...Star Frontiers has more of a western feel (yes, perhaps this point is up for debate). >So, if you really like to create, why stick to SF except out of a >feeling of NOSTALGIA, not creativity? If creativity is really >that important, then don't stick with SF: poets have long ago >abandoned Latin because English, as flawed as it is, is more flexible. I really like to create adventures and characters. As far as determining a game mechanic for falling damage, I'd rather be given one that sorta works and MAYBE try to fix it myself. If I wasn't satisfied to the extent that I am with SF then I'd Play sowething different and still be creating worlds for it, explaining how the space-travel works, etc. It's not nolstalgia. It is the feel of a tool that fits your hand perfectly. Sure, I could buy new tools, but they don't do the job any better, I've spent enough time fixing this one to know it inside out, amd I know what uses will give me blisters. Why Star Frontiers for roy? Background/aliens. Simple Mechanics (no slide rules required to figure everything). No magic. A small enough 'universe' for me to deal with yet too big to ever finish off. Sci-Fi. those aren't in any particular order. But take enough of them away and I'll be going to another game...I'd rather give up the 'no magic' and play Star Wars than run Traveller where I have a huge universe and many complicated (and buggy) tables. I'd rather play Traveller than a Fantasy game. etc. And, it doesn't help that Star Frontiers was the first game I ever had/played and nothing has been good enough to pull my attention away from the feel of it. roymeo
Wed, 31 Jan 1996 04:52:28 -0600 RE: the void again From: roymeo@iastate.edu To: frontiers@uidaho.edu Junt found this page which might be of interest to some: http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/General/tech.sf it has a pretty thorough description of FTL type travel for games, books, shows, what have you roymeo
Last modified: 96Feb13 20:15